> >
> > SEE ALSO Message 6257 "Bob E. (AA #11)"
> >
> > AND ALSO Message 6265 "Re: Bob E. (AA #11)"
> >
>
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++++Message 6280. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Having employers read the
chapter To Employers
From: Charles Knapp . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/25/2010 5:56:00 PM
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Hello all,
A reprint of Chapter 10 was published in pamphlet
form in the early 1940's and distrubied by the
Alcoholic Foundation.
"What About the Alcoholic Employee?" was the
title of the pamphlet. I am sure these were
passed out to a few companies where there were
recovering alcoholic employees.
Charles from Wisconsin
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++++Message 6281. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill''s spiritual experience --
belladonna induced?
From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/25/2010 6:04:00 PM
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I suspect this thought crossed Bill's mind on one or two occasions.
From his 1958 talk to the NYC Medical Society:
In December, 1934, I appeared at Towns Hospital, New York. My old
friend, Dr. William Silkworth, shook his head. Soon free of sedation and
alcohol, I felt horribly depressed. My friend Ebby turned up. Though glad to
see
him, I shrank a little. I feared evangelism, but nothing of the sort
happened.
After some small talk, I again asked him for his neat little formula for
recovery. Quietly and sanely, without the slightest pressure, he told me.
Then
he left. Lying there in conflict, I dropped into the blackest depression I
had
ever known. Momentarily my prideful obstinacy was crushed. I cried out, "Now
I'm
ready to do anything — anything to receive what my friend Ebby has."
Though I
certainly didn't really expect anything, I did make this frantic appeal: "If
there be a God, will He show Himself!"
The result was instant, electric, beyond description. The place seemed to
light
up, blinding white. I knew only ecstasy and seemed on a mountain. A great
wind
blew, enveloping and penetrating me. To me, it was not of air, but of
Spirit.
Blazing, there came the tremendous thought "You are a free man." Then the
ecstasy subsided. Still on the bed, I now found myself in a new world of
consciousness which was suffused by a Presence. One with the universe, a
great
peace stole over me. I thought, "So this is the God of the preachers, this
is
the Great Reality."
But soon my so-called reason returned, my modern education took over. I
thought
I must be crazy, and I became terribly frightened. Dr. Silkworth, a medical
saint if ever there was one, came in to hear my trembling account of this
phenomenon.
After questioning me carefully, he assured me that I was not mad, that I had
perhaps undergone a psychic experience which might solve my problem.
Skeptical
man of science though he then was, this was most kind and astute. If he had
said, "hallucination," I might now be dead. To him I shall ever be eternally
grateful.
God Bless
- - - -
From the moderator:
O.K., so Bill W. was "free of sedation" by that
point -- i.e., even if he had been given a little
bit of belladonna, it would have worn off.
And Dr. Silkworth, who had been giving belladonna
to patients for some time, either knew in this
case that Bill W. did not have any belladonna
in his system, or that this was totally different
from any kind of belladonna-induced mental
aberrations.
So Dr. Silkworth clearly regarded this as a
"psychic experience" or religious experience
of some sort, and something which could not
possibly have been a drug-induced reaction
in this particular case.
Drug-induced stuff is totally different from
authentic life-changing religious experience,
in my observation. You don't give scared people
real permanent courage by giving them the
temporary illusion of courage from too much
alcohol, and you don't get people sober in fact
from sending them on LSD trips, or electro-
convulsive therapy, or anything else that fries
their brains.
Bill W.'s life genuinely changed at that point,
and changed permanently, and did NOT require
continuing on daily doses of belladonna in
order to keep him sober.
So I still don't see any clinical evidence that
you could get an alcoholic permanently sober by
one dose of belladonna, or by giving the alcoholic
LSD or tranquillizers or anything else of that
sort. It doesn't work that way.
Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)
- - - -
"bbthumpthump" wrote:
>
> I read on Wikipedia that Bill had his White
> Light Spiritual Experience while under the
> effects of Charles Towns' Belladonna Cure,
> which evokes hallucinations in the patient.
>
> What can you tell me about this?
>
> - - - -
>
> From the moderator:
>
> Belladonna was part of the Towns' treatment,
> used to help keep the patient from going into
> major DT's. If Bill W. was given belladonna on
> this, his fourth visit to Towns (and in fact,
> we don't really know the answer to this for
> sure, based on my reading),
>
> would that much of the belladonna still have been
> in his system at the time of his vision of
> light?
>
> Could belladonna have given this sort of white
> light experience as a hallucination? The
> descriptions of belladonna intoxication seem
> to be saying that it was like the hallucinations
> accompanying the DT's, only a little milder,
> and what you experience when you're having DT's
> is most definitely NOT Bill's report of a
> positive and fulfilling experience of relief
> and freedom.
>
> All in all, the descriptions I have read of
> what belladonna does to you don't sound
> anything remotely like Bill W.'s white light
> experience:
>
> Belladonna produces dilated pupils, sensitivity to light, blurred vision,
tachycardia, loss of balance, staggering, headache, rash, flushing, dry
mouth
and throat, slurred speech, urinary retention, constipation, confusion,
hallucinations, delirium, and convulsions. The plant's deadly symptoms are
caused by atropine's disruption of the parasympathetic nervous system's
ability
to regulate non-volitional/subconscious activities such as sweating,
breathing,
and heart rate. Its anticholinergic properties will cause in humans the
disruption of cognitive capacities like memory and learning.
>
> That sure doesn't sound like Bill W.'s
> mountain top experience to me!
>
> But have any of our members ever had experience
> with taking belladonna, perhaps in their
> misspent youths? What actually happens when
> you take the stuff?
>
> Also be sure and see Bill Lash's excellent and
> very thorough study of all this in Message #1493
> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/1493
>
> Bill Lash describes all the stuff that was involved
> in the treatment, etc., etc.
>
> Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)
>
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++++Message 6282. . . . . . . . . . . . 2010 AA National Archives Workshop
-- dates?
From: BobR . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/24/2010 7:40:00 PM
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Anyone know the dates for this year's National Archives Workshop? I know
it's in
Macon, Georgia and many, many months away but still it would be nice to be
able
to plan for it in advance.
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++++Message 6283. . . . . . . . . . . . Speaker tapes of Joe H., Santa
Monica CA
From: diazeztone . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/29/2010 6:29:00 PM
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I have a friend who is looking for speaker
tapes by Joe Hutch of Santa Monica, California.
I find one on AA speaker tapes, but she is
looking for a big book study he did in
1992-1993.
Anybody have this or know where to find??
LD Pierce
www.aabibliography.com
eztone at hotmail
___________________________________
P.S., Joe Hawks 12 Step Big Book Study, around
September of 1992, he was at a Salvation Army
Shelter I think, and he was 5 years sober.
There were 12 tapes in the set.
I have found one by him with 8 tapes and
10 years sober, but that is not the one I want.
I prefer the one where he is very humble at
5 years.
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++++Message 6284. . . . . . . . . . . . Alcoholics Anonymous history time
line
From: sally.kelly1941 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/26/2010 3:23:00 AM
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Is there an existing print or online time line
of AA history? (i.e. a chronological, labeled
list of important dates, such as "Bill's sobriety
date," Bob's sobriety date," "Bill"s step five,"
"12 steps developed," "Alcoholics Anonymous
published," etc., etc.?
- - - -
From GC the moderator: two excellent AA timelines
can be found online on the internet.
One is put up by the New York GSO:
http://www.aa.org/aatimeline/
It is not quite as detailed as the second one
below, but has some very interesting items on
it. It is a very nice piece of work.
The other is the work of AAHistoryLovers member
Arthur S., who is an extremely careful and
knowledgeable historian, respected all over the
world for his precision and accuracy.
http://silkworth.net/timelines/timelines_public/timelines_public.html
There are other timelines, which our AAHL folks
will be able to add to this list. But both of
these timelines are extremely well done, and are
very reliable.
Glenn C.
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++++Message 6285. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Speaker tapes of Joe H., Santa
Monica CA
From: James Bliss . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/29/2010 10:32:00 PM
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There is a set for sale at:
http://bigbookawakening.com/
- - - -
diazeztone wrote:
>
> I have a friend who is looking for speaker
> tapes by Joe Hutch of Santa Monica, California.
> I find one on AA speaker tapes, but she is
> looking for a big book study he did in
> 1992-1993.
>
> Anybody have this or know where to find??
>
> LD Pierce
> www.aabibliography.com
> eztone at hotmail
> ___________________________________
>
> P.S., Joe Hawks 12 Step Big Book Study, around
> September of 1992, he was at a Salvation Army
> Shelter I think, and he was 5 years sober.
> There were 12 tapes in the set.
>
> I have found one by him with 8 tapes and
> 10 years sober, but that is not the one I want.
> I prefer the one where he is very humble at
> 5 years.
>
>
>
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++++Message 6286. . . . . . . . . . . . AA National Archives Workshop --
Sept. 23-26, 2010 -- Macon
From: Archives Historie . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/29/2010 10:59:00 PM
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The NAW will be held September 23rd through the
26th. The hotel will be the Marriott City Center
in Macon, Georgia. No further details as of yet.
In Love and service,
David in Daytona
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++++Message 6287. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill''s spiritual experience --
belladonna induced?
From: corafinch . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/27/2010 8:20:00 AM
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Ther is a new book out, The Harvard Psychedelic Club by Don Lattin, with a
little information about Bill Wilson that I've not seen elsewhere. It takes
up
only a couple of pages in the book, so I just read those pages standing is
the
aisle at Barnes and Noble and didn't get the book. Apparently Huston Smith
interviewed Bill and the person who gave him the LSD, a few months after
Bill's
first trip. Bill told Smith that the experience was a dead ringer for the
famous
white light experience.
I'm not sure how much significance should be attached to that remark. Bill
was
presumably trying to give Gerald Heard and Huston Smith something they would
be
interested to hear, and that motivation at that particular time probably
shaped
his recollection.
Nevertheless, there a a few things Glenn said that I would tend to disagree
with, and I'll intersperse them:
>
> From the moderator:
>
> O.K., so Bill W. was "free of sedation" by that
> point -- i.e., even if he had been given a little
> bit of belladonna, it would have worn off.
From what I've read, alcoholics were given true "sedatives" only for the
first
day or so, to guard against the most dangerous manifestations of withdrawal.
The belladonna mixture itself was continued longer, possibly for the entire
4 or
5 day hospitalization. Dr. Lambert (see Bill Pittman, AA the Way It Began or
by
its other title, The Roots of AA) specified that the belladonna mixture had
to
be given in doses sufficient to produce flushed skin and dilated pupils.
Otherwise, according to Lambert, it would not bring about the desired result
of
a "cessation in the desire" for alcohol.
The traditional mnemonic for atropine toxicity is "blind as a bat, dry as a
bone, red as a beet, mad as a hatter." In addition, the patients were given
large doses of vegetable and mineral laxatives, enough to produce "bilious
stools," which would have caused some degree of electrolyte and fluid
depletion.
Maybe Lambert thought he was preventing "wet brain." Some doctors thought
that
way at the time, reasoning that DTs had something to do with cerebral edema.
>
> And Dr. Silkworth, who had been giving belladonna
> to patients for some time, either knew in this
> case that Bill W. did not have any belladonna
> in his system, or that this was totally different
> from any kind of belladonna-induced mental
> aberrations.
>
> So Dr. Silkworth clearly regarded this as a
> "psychic experience" or religious experience
> of some sort, and something which could not
> possibly have been a drug-induced reaction
> in this particular case.
In view of Dr. Lambert's remarks about the cessation of desire for alcohol,
how
do you know that what happened to Bill wasn't just what Dr. Silkworth was
hoping
for? Maybe it was a rare but positive development. If you were Dr.
Silkworth,
would you have just said, "Forget it, it's the mad as a hatter part, you'll
get
over it?"
Pupillary dilatation can certainly cause visual "haloes" or the sensation of
white light. Of course, it only happened after Bill prayed for an epiphany,
and
so cannot have been entirely attributable to the drug. Similarly, the
"rushing
wind" effect is often recalled as part of epiphanies and it has been
suggested
that the autonomic effects of the ecstasy increase cardiac output and make
people momentarily "hear" their own pulse. This could also have been
potentiated
by the increased cardiac output caused by the belladonna.
No, I'm not trying to explain it all away, but it might not be right to say
that there was no connection. If you block a person's parasympathetic
nervous
system, as the atropine family of drugs does, the unopposed sympathetic
nervous
system can produce some strange effects.
>
> Drug-induced stuff is totally different from
> authentic life-changing religious experience,
> in my observation. You don't give scared people
> real permanent courage by giving them the
> temporary illusion of courage from too much
> alcohol, and you don't get people sober in fact
> from sending them on LSD trips, or electro-
> convulsive therapy, or anything else that fries
> their brains.
>
> Bill W.'s life genuinely changed at that point,
> and changed permanently, and did NOT require
> continuing on daily doses of belladonna in
> order to keep him sober.
>
> So I still don't see any clinical evidence that
> you could get an alcoholic permanently sober by
> one dose of belladonna, or by giving the alcoholic
> LSD or tranquillizers or anything else of that
> sort. It doesn't work that way.
I agree one hundred percent. Part of the lesson, though, is that things that
"work" can be our worst enemies, just because they "work." Xanax and the
other
tranquilizers work. Almost any downer will, and there a are people who swear
by
amphetamines (for adult ADD, of course). Ibogaine (a newer type of
hallucinogen)
may even work. Just because Bill used something and it "worked" doesn't mean
that it was the reason he stayed sober. There are no free lunches.
-Cora
>
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++++Message 6288. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill''s spiritual experience --
belladonna induced?
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/30/2010 3:19:00 PM
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I finally found what I was looking for -- some eyewitness accounts by people
who
had taken belladonna, describing what happened and what it felt like.
Belladonna has the same psychoactive components as jimsonweed (Datura
stramonium) -- atropine, hyoscine (scopolamine), and hyoscyamine.
When we are told that a substance causes "hallucinations," we tend to
automatically assume today that some of these are going to be pleasant
hallucinations, such as people sometimes get from LSD and magic mushrooms,
where
some people get wonderful feelings of the divinity of the whole universe,
and
being one with the universe, and that sort of thing. We might imagine that
--
along with Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds and Marshmallow Clouds -- that
maybe,
just maybe, a person high on something like this might have Bill Wilson's
kind
of experience.
But in fact, all you seem to get from belladonna is a relatively "bad trip,"
not
a "good trip." There tends to be a disturbing and fairly nightmarish quality
to
the hallucinations and delusions. That is why belladonna (which is easily
available, we've had it growing wild in our back yard) has never become
popular
with the druggies. In the U.S., it isn't even illegal, on the theory that no
one
would ever find this a satisfying recreational drug.
______________________________
At any rate, you can read to your heart's content in the wide selection of
first
hand accounts written by people who have taken belladonna, which are given
in:
http://de1.erowid.org/experiences/subs/exp_Belladonna.html
Some of them which I read were:
http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=9392
100% Visual Hallucinations, Belladonna, by parXal
http://de1.erowid.org/experiences/exp.phpquery=ID=35717.html
A Trip I'll Never Forget, Belladonna,
by Astral Perceptionz
http://de1.erowid.org/experiences/exp.phpquery=ID=18736.html
The Manson Family killed on this plant,
Atropa belladonna, by Kevin
http://de1.erowid.org/experiences/exp.phpquery=ID=30718.html
Wandering Delirium, Belladonna (roots), by yamamushi
______________________________
THE ONLY ONE I FOUND WHICH DESCRIBED MYSTICAL
EXPERIENCES or religious experiences in any
sense of the word was the following one --
but what the person took ALSO included magic
mushrooms -- in this case the variety known as
liberty cap (Psilocybe semilanceata, a
psychedelic mushroom that contains the
psychoactive compound psilocybin)
-- SO THIS IS THE EXCEPTION THAT PROVES THE RULE.
Belladonna by itself does NOT seem to produce
the kind of seemingly deeply spiritual experiences
which some people have reported after taking
LSD or magic mushrooms or peyote.
But for the details, read this person's first
hand account of mixing belladonna with magic
mushrooms:
http://de1.erowid.org/experiences/exp.phpquery=ID=48411.html
Sensory Illusion Destroyed
Mushrooms, Belladonna & Brugmansia, by The Craic
______________________________
LET'S COMPARE THE PURE BELLADONNA EXPERIENCES
WHICH WE HAVE READ ABOVE, TO BILL WILSON'S ACCOUNT
OF HIS OWN EXPERIENCE:
Big Book p. 14:
"There was a sense of victory, followed by such a
peace and serenity as I had never know. There was
utter confidence. I felt lifted up, as though the great
clean wind of a mountain top blew through and
through. God comes to most men gradually, but His
impact on me was sudden and profound."
"For a moment I was alarmed, and called my friend,
the doctor, to ask if I were still sane. He listened in
wonder as I talked."
"Finally he shook his head saying, "Something has
happened to you I don't understand. But you had
better hang on to it. Anything is better than the way
you were." The good doctor now sees many men who
have such experiences. He knows that they are real."
Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age pp. 63-64
(Bill gave an almost identical account in his
1958 talk to the NYC Medical Society, see AAHL
Message 6281):
"All at once I found myself crying out, 'If there is a God, let Him show
Himself! I am ready to do anything, anything!' Suddenly the room lit up with
a
great white light. I was caught up into an ecstasy which there are no words
to
describe. It seemed to me, in the mind's eye, that I was on a mountain and
that
a wind not of air but of spirit was blowing. And then it burst upon me that
I
was a free man. Slowly the ecstasy subsided. I lay on the bed, but now for a
time I was in another world, a new world of consciousness. All about me and
through me there was a wonderful feeling of Presence, and I thought to
myself,
'So this is the God of the preachers!' A great peace stole over me and I
thought, 'No matter how wrong things seem to be, they are still all right.
Things are all right with God and His world."
"Then, little by little, I began to be frightened. My modern education
crawled
back and said to me, 'You are halluncinating. You had better get the
doctor.'
Dr. Silkworth asked me a lot of questions. After a while he said, 'No, Bill,
you
are not crazy. There has been some basic psychological or spiritual event
here.
I've read about them in the books. Sometimes spiritual experiences do
release
people from alcoholism.' Immensely relieved, I feel again to wondering what
had
actually happened."
"More light on this came the next day. It was Ebby, I think, who brought me
a
copy of William James' Varieties of Religious Experience. It was rather
difficult reading for me, but I devoured it from cover to cover."
______________________________
In this case, Lecture 3 "The Reality of the Unseen," and parts of Lectures
4-5
"The Religion of Healthy-Mindedness," would have given Bill W. examples of
other
people who had had similar experiences.
Near the beginning of Lecture 4, James quoted from R. M. Bucke's book Cosmic
Consciousness, for example, and later on he quotes from R. W. Trine, In Tune
with the Infinite.
Mel Barger has often emphasized the importance of Bucke and Trine for
understanding Bill Wilson's religious experiences.
James also frequently refers (in this part of his book) to the New England
Transcendentalists (Emerson, Thoreau, and so on, and God as the Over-Soul).
James also makes a number of references in this part of his book to the
poety of
Walt Whitman (a later outgrowth of the Transcendentalist movement).
All of these are useful for understanding Bill W's spirituality.
______________________________
But the most important observation to make is, to my mind, that Bill
Wilson's
experience was very, very different from the sort of nightmarish trip that
people seem to have when they take belladonna. It wasn't the same thing at
all.
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++++Message 6289. . . . . . . . . . . . AA National Archives Workshop
website
From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/29/2010 8:53:00 PM
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As soon as fuller info is available for the
AA National Archives Workshop in Macon, it
should be posted on this website:
http://www.aanationalarchivesworkshop.com/
Yours in Service,
Shakey Mike Gwirtz
Hardcore Group
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++++Message 6290. . . . . . . . . . . . Banners with the steps, traditions,
and concepts
From: denise200305 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/27/2010 4:13:00 PM
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This is a question about putting up banners in
AA meeting rooms, with the 12 Steps, 12 Traditions,
and 12 Concepts written on them.
I'm from an AA group in Brisbane, Australia.
We had our Group Conscience and put to the vote
was whether we obtain a Concept Banner for our
group.
An old timer and very knowledgeable member
advised that banners can be confusing to newcomers
(e.g Step 6 and what is written on Step 6 in
12x12 two different things Tradition 3 etc.).
He also claimed that Bill W can be quoted as
saying that he was against the banners.
I have never read or heard this before. I have
dozens of books and AA info on AA history and
Bill W, and have been unable to find any info
on this.
So was wondering if you may have anything on
the history of the banners and Bill W's thoughts
on their use (if he ever said anything about
them) as I am very interested in finding out
if this was so.
Really appreciate your time
Thanking you
Kind Regards Denise
Member Brisbane Traditions Group
Australia
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++++Message 6291. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The Big Book in the rain barrel
From: Ben Humphreys . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/24/2010 6:20:00 PM
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I think it was one of Bill W.'s tall tales.
It was supposedly frozen in ice .... one of the
old Big Books with the red and yellow covers.
We should collect some of these old AA jokes
and tall tales.
Ben H.
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++++Message 6292. . . . . . . . . . . . Travel Discounts to EURYPAA
From: Stockholm Fellowship . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/27/2010 8:35:00 AM
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EURYPAA = All-Europe Young People in A.A.
Discounts for travel to EURYPAA are available
on Continental Airlines, American Airlines and
most One World partner airlines. Visit
http://www.eurypaa.org/2010/index.php?p=4 for details.
The 1st annual All-Europe Young People in A.A. conference will be hosted by
Stockholm, Sweden, July 23-25, 2010. Hundreds of AAs from across Europe -
and
around the world - are coming together in fellowship and celebration of
sobriety
through A.A. Don't miss it!
More information at www.EURYPAA.org/2010
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++++Message 6293. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Having employers read the
chapter To Employers
From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/25/2010 12:29:00 PM
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From Bailey and Mel Barger
- - - -
From: Baileygc23@aol.com (Baileygc23 at aol.com)
Pretty close to thirty years ago, I loaned
the book with its chapter noted to my supervisors
who were having problems with an alcoholic
employee.
They gave me the book back after a while.
Subsequently they laid the employee off.
He was hired by another company, and laid off
there, on his way back to the local area he
drove his car into the support for an overpass
and was killed.
- - - -
From: Mel B.
(melb at buckeye-access.com)
Hi Harriet,
It seems to me that I read once that the
employers section was printed as a separate
pamphlet. Though short on cash, the AA
pioneers considered this to be so important
that they reprinted it in this form as an
inexpensive way to reach employers.
Mel Barger, Toledo
melb@accesstoledo.com
(melb at accesstoledo.com)
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++++Message 6294. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Having employers read the
chapter To Employers
From: secondles . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/25/2010 7:15:00 PM
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There is a somewhat related method for dealing with employers which does not
exactly fit with this question but nonetheless is a support system for
alcoholics regarding employment.
There has been a State/Federal program called Vocational Rehabilitation
which
operates in all States which began in 1922. I was involved with this program
professionaly throughout my career. Seven years of that career I carried a
case
load as a Counselor in the State of Maryland (1955-1962), and the next 25
years
in executive positions administuring that program with the Federal Office
(OSERS-RSA). It is a program which serves a broad range of disabilities,
including alcoholism, provided the disability constitutes a Vocational
problem.
It is not a "welfare" type of program and sometimes a client may be asked to
participate in certain costs associated with his rehabilitation plan. Mostly
those services are free or handled cooperatively with other agencies. Job
Placement (dealing with employers) is one of the services. It respects
confidentiality just like other professions.
It is customary when a Counselor has a case concerning alcoholism,(and it
might
start with a referral from an employer who would like to keep an employee
who is
being or causing a problem) that the question of job adjustment needs to be
discussed. Perhaps the Counselor might discuss the idea of AA with the
Client.
Perhaps the employer might benefit if the Counselor interceded and offered
some
insight (with the client's permission) about the client's positive aspects
such
as underutilized skills, etc.
I don't want to discuss the whole program which is always individualized
(and I
personally didn't understand the AA-12-Steps program back then) but I
mention
the VR program here to point out that sometimes it is not simply reading the
Big
Book, or something related, which is useful. A hands-on, compassionate,
professional helper might be needed...perhaps with the person, or with the
employer, or both.
Les C.
Colorado Springs, CO
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++++Message 6295. . . . . . . . . . . . AA timeline
From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/30/2010 1:23:00 AM
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Sally K. asked about AA timelines:
For a 57-page AA timeline, you can go to:
http://www.4dgroups.org
Click "Downloads" - click Documents - scroll
down to "Original 57 Page Timeline" (2004)
. . plus, you will find the same updated
(2007) timeline on the next page.
I keep this timeline next to my PC at all times.
Bob S.
- - - -
From the moderator:
This timeline
http://www.4dgroups.org/index.php?option=com_remository&Itemid=26&func=filei
nfo&\
id=9 [2]
seems to be another version of Arthur S.'s
excellent timeline mentioned in the previous
message.
Glenn C.
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++++Message 6296. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Clyde B. and Freeman Carpenter
From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/26/2010 10:00:00 AM
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From Jared Lobdell and Shakey Mike.
LD Pierce (aabibliography.com) had asked,
"is Clyde B. ('Freeman Carpenter') still alive?"
- - - -
From: "J. Lobdell"
Still alive -- and on Facebook (full real name)
-- and will be 90 on March 12.
- - - -
From: Shakey1aa@aol.com (Shakey1aa at aol.com)
Clyde is still with us. I saw him about 2 months
ago at a Unity pitch given by the Southeastern
Pennsylvania Intergroup Assn, SEPIA, of whom I
am a past Chairperson. I approached him about
helping out in a meet and greet sometime in the
near future for the Archives Committee. Of course
he said he would if he could.
He originally got sober in the Boston Area, before
moving to Bucks county outside Philadelphia. He
has volunteered for a long time at Livengrin, a
rehab on the old estate of Mercedes Mc C., an
Oscar winning actress( All the King's Men).
Because of the recent interest in him,and I hope
it is not because of his length of sobriety
only, I will give him a call tomorrow if for
nothing more than one alcoholic talking to
another.
Yours in Service,
Shakey Mike Gwirtz
Hardcore Group
- - - -
Original messages from LD Pierce and J. Lobdell:
> From: eztone@hotmail.com
> Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010
> Subject: Re: Clyde B. and Freeman Carpenter
>
> Interesting ---- is Clyde B. ("Freeman Carpenter")
> still alive?
>
> (Clyde has email and website selling that
> book and others: www.freemancarpenter.com )
>
> LD Pierce
> aabibliography.com
>
> - - - -
>
> "J. Lobdell" wrote:
> >
> > My recollection is that Chauncey C. was the longest sober member at
Toronto
2005 and died in 2006. Did he get sober at Dr. Bob's [house] in Akron in
1941?
He was succeeded as oldest by Easy E. down in Alabama, who got sober, I
think,
in Nov 1942, and died in 2008? I don't know of any living members who got
sober
before the end of WW2 (and stayed sober).
>
> There is in Bristol, Pennsylvania, Clyde B. who got sober in Boston June
20
1946 and wrote a book a dozen years ago -- SIXTY YEARS A DRUNK FIFTY YEARS
SOBER
(under the pen-name Freeman Carpenter). He's the longest sober I've met.
>
>
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++++Message 6297. . . . . . . . . . . . Roy L. Smith, Emergency Rations
From: Charlie C . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/26/2010 7:14:00 AM
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Not long ago I got some of the reprint "can openers" available from the
Akron AA
Archives website. Interesting stuff, including the meditation booklet by Roy
L.
Smith, "Emergency Rations." I have found some biographical info on him, but
am
curious still to find out what, if any, contact he might have had with AA.
As a
Methodist preacher and writer in a time when many of their publications were
popular in AA circles, e.g. the "Upper Room," it might have been just from
that
general connection, but I was wondering if anyone knew of more direct
contact
between him and AA folks?
Charlie C.IM = route20guy
"O wad some Pow'r the giftie gie us
To see oursels as others see us!
It would frae monie a blunder free us
an foolish notion...."
To a Louse, Rob't Burns
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++++Message 6298. . . . . . . . . . . . Use of sweets
From: jaynebirch55 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/26/2010 8:38:00 AM
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Hello friends,
Jayne from Barking Big Book study here. The group has asked if you have any
information on the doctor mentioned on page 133 of the Big Book who advised
that
the use of sweets was often helpful.
God bless
Jayne
- - - -
From G.C. the moderator, see Big Book pp. 133-134:
"ALCOHOLICS SHOULD CONSTANTLY HAVE CHOCOLATE AVAILABLE"
"One of the many doctors who had the opportunity
of reading this book in manuscript form told us that
the use of sweets was often helpful, of course depend-
ing upon a doctor's advice. He thought all alcoholics
should constantly have chocolate available for its
quick energy value at times of fatigue. He added that
occasionally in the night a vague craving arose which
would be satisfied by candy. Many of us have noticed
a tendency to eat sweets and have found this practice
beneficial."
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++++Message 6299. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill''s spiritual experience --
belladonna induced?
From: Lawrence Willoughby . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/31/2010 3:01:00 PM
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In my 35 years of clinical experience, with one of my specialties being the
treatment of adolescents who are alcoholics and drug addicts, I have known
at
least a thousand cases of people who have experimented with using belladonna
to
get high.
Belladonna to the best of my experiences with patients has NEVER produced
anything like what Bill Wilson reported happening to him at Towns Hospital.
It is always bad.
The attempt to claim that Bill Wilson's experience was a hallucination
induced
by belladonna is the silliest thing I have ever heard. Where is this coming
from?
Larry
========================================
Lawrence Willoughby, thirty-five years in the
clinical specialties areas of substance abuse,
trauma, PTSD including combat. Has been a
clinical supervisor, CEO of a partial program,
MSW, LCSW, DCSW.
========================================
Message: No. 6288 from Glenn Chesnut
I finally found what I was looking for -- some
eyewitness accounts by people who had taken
belladonna, describing what happened and what
it felt like
.... all you seem to get from belladonna is a
relatively "bad trip," not a "good trip." There
tends to be a disturbing and fairly nightmarish
quality to the hallucinations and delusions.
Belladonna by itself does NOT ... produce the
kind of seemingly deeply spiritual experiences
which some people have reported after taking LSD
or magic mushrooms or peyote.
You can read to your heart's content in the wide
selection of first hand accounts written by people
who have taken belladonna, which are given in:
http://de1.erowid.org/experiences/subs/exp_Belladonna.html
COMPARE THIS TO BILL WILSON'S ACCOUNT OF HIS
OWN VERY POSITIVE AND UPLIFTING EXPERIENCE:
Big Book p. 14:
"There was a sense of victory, followed by such a
peace and serenity as I had never know. There was
utter confidence. I felt lifted up, as though the great
clean wind of a mountain top blew through and
through. God comes to most men gradually, but His
impact on me was sudden and profound."
"For a moment I was alarmed, and called my friend,
the doctor, to ask if I were still sane. He listened in
wonder as I talked."
"Finally he shook his head saying, "Something has
happened to you I don't understand. But you had
better hang on to it. Anything is better than the way
you were." The good doctor now sees many men who
have such experiences. He knows that they are real."
Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age pp. 63-64
(Bill gave an almost identical account in his
1958 talk to the NYC Medical Society, see AAHL
Message 6281):
"All at once I found myself crying out, 'If there is a God, let Him show
Himself! I am ready to do anything, anything!' Suddenly the room lit up with
a
great white light. I was caught up into an ecstasy which there are no words
to
describe. It seemed to me, in the mind's eye, that I was on a mountain and
that
a wind not of air but of spirit was blowing. And then it burst upon me that
I
was a free man. Slowly the ecstasy subsided. I lay on the bed, but now for a
time I was in another world, a new world of consciousness. All about me and
through me there was a wonderful feeling of Presence, and I thought to
myself,
'So this is the God of the preachers!' A great peace stole over me and I
thought, 'No matter how wrong things seem to be, they are still all right.
Things are all right with God and His world."
"Then, little by little, I began to be frightened. My modern education
crawled
back and said to me, 'You are hallucinating. You had better get the doctor.'
Dr. Silkworth asked me a lot of questions. After a while he said, 'No, Bill,
you
are not crazy. There has been some basic psychological or spiritual event
here.
I've read about them in the books. Sometimes spiritual experiences do
release
people from alcoholism.' Immensely relieved, I feel again to wondering what
had
actually happened."
"More light on this came the next day. It was Ebby, I think, who brought me
a
copy of William James' Varieties of Religious Experience. It was rather
difficult reading for me, but I devoured it from cover to cover."
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++++Message 6300. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill''s spiritual experience --
belladonna induced?
From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/30/2010 5:10:00 PM
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Didn't Bill's grandfather have a spiritual
experience of some sort at the granite mill
up on the mountain?
Tommy
- - - -
From G.C. the moderator:
That story is told in Francis Hartigan's book,
Bill W.; A Biography of Alcoholics Anonymous
Cofounder Bill Wilson, page 11.
Francis Hartigan was Lois Wilson's secretary.
William C. ("Willie") Wilson was Bill W.'s
paternal grandfather.
==========================================
"William Wilson may have preferred inn keeping to quarrying, but inn keeping
is
seldom the right occupation for a hard-drinking man. His attempts to control
his
drinking led him to try Temperance pledges and the services of revival-tent
preachers. Then, in a desperate state one Sunday morning, he climbed to the
top
of Mount Aeolus. There, after beseeching God to help him, he saw a blinding
light and felt the wind of the Spirit. It was a conversion experience that
left
him feeling so transformed that he practically ran down the mountain and
into
town."
"When he reached the East Dorset Congregational Church, which is across the
street from the Wilson House, the Sunday service was in progress. Bill's
grandfather stormed into the church and demanded that the minister get down
from
the pulpit. Then, taking his place, he proceeded to relate his experience to
the
shocked congregation. Wilson's grandfather never drank again. He was to live
another eight years, sober."
==========================================
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++++Message 6301. . . . . . . . . . . . When Love Is Not Enough -- Lois
Wilson Story -- April 25, 2010
From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/3/2010 3:31:00 AM
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The movie about Lois Wilson -- When Love Is
Not Enough -- airs in the U.S. on Sunday,
April 25 at 9 P.M. EST in a Hallmark Hall of
Fame Presentation on the CBS Network.
http://winona-ryder.org/2010/01/when-love-is-not-enough-release-date/?utm_so
urce\
=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter [3]
This is based on Bill B's book.
Yours in Service.
Shakey Mike Gwirtz
Hardcore group
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++++Message 6302. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Banners with the steps,
traditions, and concepts
From: diazeztone . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/2/2010 10:39:00 PM
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My opinion -- that is all this is -- if you are
a traditions group you would certainly have the
traditions and concepts on the wall.
LD Pierce
--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com,
"denise200305"
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