> finding the answer searching previous posts. My question concerns the
> know the trail of ownership? Lois to Barry L. to ... who?
From: Dudley Dobinson . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/25/2010 8:03:00 PM
previous history Lois Wilson gave Barry the document. I could expand on the
reason for this but I would only be repeating previous discussions on AAHL.
Archives.
From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/26/2010 12:41:00 AM
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The first Big Book that has the statement,
registered trademark of A.A. World Services,
Inc." was in the 23rd Printing of the Third Edition, 1986.
ANONYMOUS (r in circle), A.A. (r in circle), and
1986.
All the Second Editions have the circle and
triangle on the full title page. The first to
triangle, but I don't have a complete collection of the Third Edition.
when the trademark was applied for.
>which I did not know the answer to. During what
>of A.A. World Services, Inc.
>on the copyright page.
From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/26/2010 12:01:00 AM
$40.95 plus shipping.
2010.
Search books for "The Book that Started It All".
wrote:
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I know this has been addressed before, but I'm having trouble
> > finding the answer searching previous posts. My question concerns the
> > master copy of the original manuscript (multilith edition), which has
> > been sold twice at Sotheby's (First time in 2004, second time in
> > 2007 for substantial sums.)
> >
> > What I would like to know is, who actually was in possession of it and
> > received payment when it was auctioned off the first time? And, do we
> > know the trail of ownership? Lois to Barry L. to ... who?
> >
> > Thank you,
> >
> > Mike Margetis
> > Brunswick, MD
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++++Message 6831. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Fr. John Ford: AA rejection of
Oxford Group absolutism, etc.
From: Chuck Parkhurst . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/26/2010 3:09:00 AM
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The Big Book refers (p 74) to the person or persons with whom to take this
intimate and confidential step .... just a thought:
"Rightly and naturally, we think well before we choose the person or persons
with whom to take this intimate and confidential step. Those of us belonging
to
a religious denomination which requires confession must, and of course, will
want to go to the properly appointed authority whose duty it is to receive
it.
Though we have no religious conception, we may still do well to talk with
someone ordained by an established religion. We often find such a person
quick
to see and understand our problem. Of course, we sometimes encounter people
who
do not understand alcoholics."
"If we cannot or would rather not do this, we search our acquaintance for a
close-mouthed, understanding friend. Perhaps our doctor or psychologist will
be
the person. It may be one of our own family, but we cannot disclose anything
to
our wives or our parents which will hurt them and make them unhappy. We have
no right to save our own skin at another person's expense. Such parts of our
story we tell to someone who will understand, yet be unaffected."
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++++Message 6832. . . . . . . . . . . . Problem Drinkers (1946 March of
Time) on Turner Classics
From: Bruce C . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/25/2010 9:49:00 AM
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The March of Time "Problem Drinker" from 1946
will be aired on (TCM) Turner Classic Movies.
September 5, 2010 at 11:00 p.m., see the link below:
http://www.tcm.com/thismonth/article/?cid=345580&mainArticleId=343404
This is from the HBO Archives. I found this a few years ago and placed them
in
the time line of our history. see link below
http://www.aamuncie.org/March_of_Time_1946.html
Bruce C.
________________________________________________
1946 March of Time
Problem Drinkers
The first public film record of A.A. work (Public Information), was the
1946 March of Time feature, "Problem Drinkers". The March 1946 issue of
the Grapevine reported the following:
Documentary Film
"The March of Time is in the process of making a documentary film on
alcoholism, in which Alcoholics Anonymous is to play a large part. The film,
said a March of Time official, will probably not be ready for release for
several months to come. Prior to the release they will notify the Central
Office, which in turn will inform all A.A. groups in time to catch the
picture
immediately it is out."
The June Grapevine reported the following:
"Release date for The March of Time documentary film on alcoholism has
been announced as June 14.
The picture includes scenes taken at the A.A. Central Office in Manhattan;
the
NCEA (Nat'l Committee for Education on Alcoholism); New York's
Knickerbocker Hospital; the Yale School for Alcohol Studies; and at the
clubrooms of one A.A. group--chosen by The March of Time people because
it seemed typical.
A.A.s anonymity has been respected throughout. No A.A.s face is shown in
the film. The faces distinguishable in the shots taken at the Central Office
are
those of non-alcoholics. And those seen at the group's clubrooms are
actors'.
The one exception is Marty M., who emerged from her anonymity when
called upon to become executive director of NCEA."
The following are five segments of the documentary film on alcoholism,
that are from the HBO Archives collection.
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++++Message 6833. . . . . . . . . . . . Circle Triangle Trademark
From: mark_area56 . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/27/2010 9:31:00 AM
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Circle and Triangle Trademarks by Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc.
Source – United States Patent and Trademark Office Website
Circle Triangle Design - Trademark
Registration # 1314581
First Use - July 1955
Filed - March 8, 1984
Registered – January 15, 1985
Cancellation Date – October 17, 2005
Circle Triangle Design – Service Mark
Registration # 1557358
First Use – July 1955
Filed – December 12, 1988
Registered – September 19, 1989
Cancellation Date – March 25, 1996
Circle Triangle Design plus AA (words) – Trademark Service Mark
Registration # 1560849
First Use – July 1955
Filed – December 12, 1988
Registered – October 17, 1989
Cancellation Date – April 22, 1996
Circle Triangle Design plus AA Unity Service Recovery (words) – Service
Mark
Registration # 1556288
First Use – February 1, 1955
Filed – December 12, 1988
Registered – September 12, 1989
Cancellation Date – March 18, 1996
Circle Triangle Design plus AA Unity Service Recovery (words) – Trademark
Registration # 1371267
First Use – February 1, 1955
Filed – February 26, 1985
Registered – November 19, 1985
Cancellation Date – August 26, 2006
Circle Triangle Design plus AA General Service Conference (words)
– Trademark
Registration # 1322117
First Use – February 1, 1955
Filed – April 2, 1984
Registered – February 26, 1985
Cancellation Date – December 3, 2005
Circle Triangle Design plus AA General Service Conference (words)
– Service Mark
Registration # 1555284
First Use – February 1, 1955
Filed – December 12, 1988
Registered – September 5, 1989
Cancellation Date – March 11, 1996
And, for those who might be interested, there are a total of 19 trade and
service marks listed. Other than the seven listed above, there are two for
the
"A.A." mark showing first use on March 1, 1939 and still live plus one for
"Alcoholics Anonymous" with a first use also on March 1, 1939 and also still
live. The remaining marks are for "The Big Book", "Box 459", both still
live,
and the marks used for the last few International Conventions.
Just to close some loops from the recent discussions.
Mark
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++++Message 6834. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Circle Triangle Trademark
From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/27/2010 7:36:00 AM
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The circle and triangle symbol made its debut at the 1955 International
Convention in St Louis. It was featured on a large banner at the back of the
stage (re AA comes of Age - pp 40 and 139). A December 1993 Grapevine
article gives the history of the symbol and states "the circle and
triangle symbol was registered as an official AA mark in 1955."
Cheers
Arthur
- - - -
From: Glenn Chesnut
(glennccc at sbcglobal.net)
Arthur,
I suspected something like this when I first asked
the question. This indicates that as of 1993, there
were people at the New York AA office who mistakenly
thought the circle and triangle had been officially
registered as a trademark with the United States
Patent and Trademark Office back in 1955. But in
proper legal terminology that was only "First Use."
In fact, the circle and triangle were not legally
registered as a trademark until 1985. That is why
the R in a circle (indicating a legally registered
trademark) did not start appearing in Big Books
in conjunction with the circle and triangle logo
(as Tommy Hickcox noted) until 1985/1986.
So the actions later taken by the New York GSO
and AA World Services to try to stop anyone but
them using that logo, was a attempt to lock the
barn without even realizing that this particular
horse had already successfully stolen away fifty
years earlier.
Glenn
- - - -
See Message No. 6833 from "mark_area56"
(mark at go-concepts.com)
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/6833
Circle and Triangle Trademarks by Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc.
Source – United States Patent and Trademark Office Website
Circle Triangle Design - Trademark
Registration # 1314581
First Use - July 1955
Filed - March 8, 1984
Registered – January 15, 1985
Cancellation Date – October 17, 2005
Circle Triangle Design – Service Mark
Registration # 1557358
First Use – July 1955
Filed – December 12, 1988
Registered – September 19, 1989
Cancellation Date – March 25, 1996
Circle Triangle Design plus AA (words) – Trademark Service Mark
Registration # 1560849
First Use – July 1955
Filed – December 12, 1988
Registered – October 17, 1989
Cancellation Date – April 22, 1996
Circle Triangle Design plus AA Unity Service Recovery (words) – Service
Mark
Registration # 1556288
First Use – February 1, 1955
Filed – December 12, 1988
Registered – September 12, 1989
Cancellation Date – March 18, 1996
Circle Triangle Design plus AA Unity Service Recovery (words) – Trademark
Registration # 1371267
First Use – February 1, 1955
Filed – February 26, 1985
Registered – November 19, 1985
Cancellation Date – August 26, 2006
Circle Triangle Design plus AA General Service Conference (words)
– Trademark
Registration # 1322117
First Use – February 1, 1955
Filed – April 2, 1984
Registered – February 26, 1985
Cancellation Date – December 3, 2005
Circle Triangle Design plus AA General Service Conference (words)
– Service Mark
Registration # 1555284
First Use – February 1, 1955
Filed – December 12, 1988
Registered – September 5, 1989
Cancellation Date – March 11, 1996
And, for those who might be interested, there are a total of 19 trade and
service marks listed. Other than the seven listed above, there are two for
the
"A.A." mark showing first use on March 1, 1939 and still live plus one for
"Alcoholics Anonymous" with a first use also on March 1, 1939 and also still
live. The remaining marks are for "The Big Book", "Box 459", both still
live,
and the marks used for the last few International Conventions.
Just to close some loops from the recent discussions.
Mark
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++++Message 6835. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: When were the circle and
triangle officially registered?
From: john wikelius . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/27/2010 3:43:00 PM
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Do you need printings and dates of third edition?
________________________________
From: Tom Hickcox
(cometkazie1 at cox.net)
The first Big Book that has the statement,
"ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS (r in a circle) is a
registered trademark of A.A. World Services,
Inc." was in the 23rd Printing of the Third Edition, 1986.
The first to have the statement, "ALCOHOLICS
ANONYMOUS (r in circle), A.A. (r in circle), and
(the circle and triangle symbol plus r in a circle) was the 24th Printing
1986.
All the Second Editions have the circle and
triangle on the full title page. The first to
have a trademark symbol (r in a circle) was the
20th Printing 1985. None of these had the statement on the copyright page.
They subsequently dropped the circle and
triangle, but I don't have a complete collection of the Third Edition.
This, of course, doesn't answer the question of
when the trademark was applied for.
Tommy H in Baton Rouge
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++++Message 6836. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Most alcoholics ... have lost
the power of choice
From: Charley Bill . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/25/2010 12:54:00 PM
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From Charley Bill and looking@pigsfly.com
- - - -
On 8/21/2010 2:23 PM, Charles Knapp wrote:
>
> Hello Group,
>
> One possible reason: Three pages earlier Bill says "But what about the
> real alcoholic? He may start off as a moderate drinker; he may or may
> not become a continuous hard drinker; but at some stage of his
> drinking career he begins to lose all control of his liquor
> consumption, once he starts to drink." Is it possible that a person
> could be alcoholic that has not lost the "power of choice in drink"?
> Could they wake up one day and realize they have begun to lose control
> and if they continue drinking the way they have been they might become
> a real alcoholic? It is the individual that makes the diagnoses they
> are alcoholic, not any of us. Maybe Bill left a way in for the person
> who truly believed they were alcoholic but had not lost the power of
> choice in drink.
>
> Charles from Wisconsin
>
>
Hooray for Charles! I usually point out that a person may be an
'incipient alcoholic' in my Joe and Charlie Workshops. It also provides
a way for someone who is worried about their drinking but not ready to
accept the label of alcoholic to join us in AA. They soon seem to
forget that they ever objected to the label and enter into the
Fellowship wholeheartedly.
How is Wisconsin? Do you miss the desert? Was it kind to you?
- - - -
ON A FURTHER TOPIC:
Whenever there is a reference to the drafts of the Big Book, would it
be useful to state the obvious: No one has ever achieved sobriety by using
the
draft versions, but hundreds of thousands in countries all over the globe
have
done so using the approved editions?
I certainly agree with Old Ben, it couldn't be better for us used to
learning from books made from paper. However, different media is needed for
many
of our newcomers who did not grow up with books.
- - - -
From: (looking at pigsfly.com)
This would suggest that no one got sober in AA before the first edition came
out of the bindery.
I know this is an area of some controversy, but I think the ideas embodied
in the big book are more important than the specific way they are fixed in
print, and the next 25 years is going to be nearly as important and
difficult in the way we tell our story to a new population as the first 25
years were.
I'm not anti-paper. I write this in my home library (where one of my dogs
just tried to eat Fred Allen's Treadmill to Oblivion). It is full of legacy
media. But I'm no less than ecstatic that I can buy a copy of the big book
and have it downloaded to my kindle for 99 cents. I realize that not
everyone has kindles, and a significant percentage of our new members have
nothing left to lose and therefore won't have an eBook.
But for others, this is a way to get our literature in the hands of those
interested for a pittance with no one having to underwrite the cost. This is
one of the most anonymous methods of delivery and it can be read in public
without anyone besides the reader knowing what is being read. For those on
the path who are not yet willing to embrace their alcoholism and are afraid
of being labeled, this is a great improvement over paper.
Visual methods are going to become more important than textual methods;
perhaps they already are. Those of us with an interest in how we got here
should play a major role in helping to guide the way to where we're going.
The way the world embraces information is changing. I hope we can find the
right path to change with it.
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++++Message 6837. . . . . . . . . . . . Irma Livoni letter of December 6
1941
From: jomo . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/28/2010 6:55:00 AM
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This subject has probably been discussed before my time. But as a newcomer
in
the early 1970's in Los Angeles I saw, or believe I saw a carbon copy or a
photo
of the actual Irma Livoni letter.
I have been curious about this letter and would like to ask a couple things.
[1] First, has this letter, as some have said, been documented as the basis
for
AA's Third Tradition?
[2] and second, silkworth.com says that the original is held by its owner,
and I
would like to know who is holding the letter now, and is there a photo of it
or
carbon copy archived somewhere and copies of it available?
John M
South Burlington, Vermont US
ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS
Post Office Box 607
Hollywood Station,
Hollywood, California
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