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Sorena kowowaSvili
risTvis gamouSves
ivaniSvili opoziciaSi
da visi davalebiT ar
ikarebs is nino
burjanaZes? _ am
sakiTxebis irgvliv
gTavazobT intervius
leiboristuli partiis
lider Salva
naTelaSvilTan.
_ batono Salva, faqtia, qve-
yana axali politikuri realobis
winaSe dgas. ra mdgomareobaSia ima-
ve gare faqtorebidan gamomdinare
saakaSvilis xelisufleba?
_ xelisuflebisa da reJimis
Secvlis Jami dgeba. samwliani cik-
li dadga wels: saparlamento, mo-
maval wels _ saprezidento da Sem-
dgom dagvirgvindeba adgilobri-
vi TviTmmarTvelobis arCevnebiT.
radgan es cikli dgeba, uamravi pa-
raSutiT gadmogdebuli neli moq-
medebis yumbara iyris Tavs Cveni
qveynis teritoriaze, ZiriTadad _
amerikidan. Tumca, sxva qveynebsac
interesi aqvT da sxva qveynis deda-
qalaqidanac, moskovi maqvs mxedve-
lobaSi, gaZlierebulia saakaSvil-
Tan Sekruli ruseTSi wargzavnili
biznesmenebis aqtiuroba, saakaSvi-
lis biZis _ Temur alasanias kura-
torobaSi myofi biznesmenebis, ro-
gorebic arian: xubutia, ebraliZe,
zurab wereTeli, romelmac axla-
xan piari gaiTamaSa aeroportSi,
viTom ruseT-saqarTvelos Soris
sruli harmonia daamyara saakaSvil-
ma, uvizo reJimi SemoiRo da a.S. iq
amerikidan Camogvigdes es politi-
kurad yru-munji ivaniSvili, ro-
melmac mTeli politikuri speqtris
udidesi nawili moisyida im piro-
biT, rom quCaSi ar gamovidnen. es
aris pirdapir amerikidan mocemu-
li davaleba, rom politikuri pro-
cesi quCaSi ar gadavides. sxva Sem-
TxvevaSi, SeiZleba amerikam saqar-
TveloSi marTvadi xelisufleba ve-
Rar moiyvanos da movides marTlac
xalxis mier arCeuli xelisufleba
mTlianad an mniSvnelovani segmen-
ti. ai, am realobis winaSe vdga-
varT. Tu davamatebT imasac, rom
regioni realurad afeTqebis
zRvarzea, Crdilo kavkasia kvlav
duRs, iran-israel-amerikis urTi-
erTobas ukve SeiZleba winasaoma-
ri ewodos propagandistulad. po-
tenciurad iq ukve omia. amas daem-
Txva e.w. arabuli gazafxulic, sak-
maod sisxliani da arcTu mTlad
gazafxulis msgavsi. siriaSi ukve 7
aTasi adamiania mokluli orive mxa-
res. faqtobrivad, iq orive mxare
samoqalaqo omisTvisaTvis aris Sem-
zadebuli. rac egviptesa da libia-
Si, ase Tu ise, Tavidan aiciles po-
litikosebma, siriaSi, rogorc Cans,
samoqalaqo omi gardauvalia. ai, am
aspeqtebis gaTvaliswinebiT, rea-
loba ara marto axalia, aramed _
sakmaod saSiSic.
_ es aspeqtebi daaCqarebs sa-
qarTvelos xelisuflebidan saakaS-
vilis gundis wasvlas?
_ saakaSvilis xelisuflebis
wasvla amerikis SeerTebul Sta-
tebs ar unda. es Riad uTxra obamam
saakaSvils TeTr saxlSi Sexvedris
dros, formalurad gadaabare Za-
lauflebao. viTom Caabare, magram
darCio.
_ obamas es gancxadeba poli-
tikosebma diplomatiuri gamoTqme-
biT axsnes da miuTiTes, rom obamam
saakaSvils garkveviT uTxra, de-
mokratiuli da samarTliani arCev-
nebi Caatareo. Tqven pirdapir gai-
geT?
_ axla, Tu adamians unda Ta-
vis motyueba, yvelafers moigonebs,
rom misTvis sasurveli informacia
gamowuros arasasurveli informa-
ciidan. politikosebma ra unda CaT-
valon, lingvisturi momentia. for-
malurad gadabareba niSnavs ara Za-
lauflebis oficialurad gadaba-
rebas, aramed formalurad _ speq-
taklis gamarTvas, rac moxda `var-
debis revoluciis~ dros, roca Se-
vardnaZem formalurad gadaabara
Zalaufleba mixeil saakaSvils, mag-
ram xelisuflebaSi darCnen Sevar-
dnaZis yvela moadgile. darCnen Se-
vardnaZis partiis wevrebi da mTe-
li sistema.
_ anu, Tqveni azriT, saakaSvi-
li da ivaniSvilis koalicia sapar-
lamento mandatebs gaiyofen da mi-
nistrTa portfelebzec SeTanxmde-
bian?
_ ivaniSvilis flangi SemoS-
vebulia imisaTvis, rom pirveli: ga-
aCeros samitingo talRa, risac sa-
akaSvilsa da amerikelebs cecxli-
viT eSiniaT; meore _ saparlamento
arCevnebis Semdgom 20-25 kaciT ga-
vides parlamentSi. formaluri me-
ore da sapatio adgili daikavos
da gviTxras, ai, axla sapreziden-
to arCevnebSi vaCveneb saakaSvilsa
da mis xelisuflebas, romelic mo-
maval wels gaimarTebao. ivaniSvi-
lis mizania dros gayvana da xalxis
tyuilebiT kveba. imavdroulad, Tu
dasWirdebaT da amas amerikelebi
etyvian, samTavrobo koalicias ga-
ukeTebs premier-ministr saakaS-
vils an parlamentis Tavmjdomare
saakaSvils. eWvi ar SegeparoT, rom
am koaliciaSi gaqandebian respub-
likelebic da alasaniac. erTi wu-
TiT Tvals ar daaxamxameben, ise ga-
iqcevian ministrebad da sxva Tanam-
debobebze.
_ anu Tqven darwmunebuli
xarT, rom axal parlamentSi umrav-
lesobiT isev nacionalebi iqnebi-
an?
_ Tu ase wavida saqme da quCa-
Si xalxi ar gamovida, ra Tqma unda,
umravlesobiT iqnebian nacionale-
bi. gaiyvanen 65 maJoritars Tavisas
da gaiyvanen siis naxevars. maJori-
tarebs damatebuli siis naxevari
aris umravlesoba.
_ Tqveni pozicia gasagebia,
magram faqtia, rom quCis aqciebma
Sedegi ver moitana, miuxedavad imi-
sa, rom Zalian didi muxti iyo da
xelisufleba gaZlierda, araTu Se-
icvala.
_ quCis aqciebi tardeboda
ara im dros, roca unda Catarebu-
liyo. dro da garemoeba unda daem-
Txves aqciebis Catarebas. saWiro
dros saWiro adgilze unda aRmoC-
nde. roca muxti modis maSin, roca
ar aris saWiro, mere es naperwkali
isev qreba. erTaderTi, roca saWi-
ro iyo xalxis quCaSi gamosvla, es
iyo 7 noembris periodi da Cven quCa-
Si videqiT; meore iyo ipodromis
aqciis dros. maSin xalxis swor or-
ganizebas SeeZlo, daemxo es moRa-
late xelisufleba. sxva SemTxve-
vebSi yvela pativsacemia, vinc ga-
modioda, gansakuTrebiT _ gulan-
Tebuli adamianebi, magram ai, axlaa
swored quCaSi gamosvlis dro.
_ magram dRes vxedavT, rom
xalxi saprotesto aqciebze aRar
gamodis.
_ imitom ar gamodis, rom, jer
erTi, isedac SeSinebulia es xalxi,
gansakuTrebiT 26 maisis Semdeg. xal-
xi imitom ar gamodis quCaSi, rom
ivaniSvilma imoqmeda xalxze.
_ aseTi didi Zala da gavlena
aqvs xalxze biZina ivaniSvils?
_ am kacs ki ara aqvs Zala, 5,5
mlrd dolars aqvs, romelic mis
angariSze iricxeba. Cven rogorc
ki davniSneT pirveli mitingi 7 no-
embers da amis Sesaxeb 5 oqtombers
gamovacxadeT, 6 oqtombers gamox-
ta da ganacxada, aranairi mitingi,
partias vqmnio. 7 noembers parla-
mentis win 20-30 aTasi adamiani rom
mosuliyo, axla saarCevno garemo
iqneboda Secvlili da gakeTilSo-
bilebuli. is saarCevno kodeqsi, um-
ravlesobiT rom arian nacionale-
bi saarCevno komisiebSi, ase aRar
iqneboda. mivaRwevdiT maJoritare-
bis gauqmebas da, saerTod, movigeb-
diT arCevnebs arCevnebamde. ivaniS-
vilma CaSala Cveni mitingi 7 oqtom-
bers. xalxi ki movida, magram masa,
rac saWiro iyo saakaSvilisa da
misi reJimis SesaSineblad, dRes es
reJimi ase Zlieri aRar iqneboda da
viTareba mTlianad Seicvleboda.
7-Sic CaSala, 21-Sic da 17-Sic.
_ modiT, biZina ivaniSvils da-
vubrundeT, romelsac Tqven dRes
saakaSvilze
metad esxmiT Tavs. ratom ur-
tyamT ase opoziciur flangs?
_ imitom rom dRes ivaniSvi-
li ufro saSiSia, vidre saakaSvi-
li. imitom rom ivaniSvili saa-
kaSvilia dRes. rogorc komunis-
tebis dros ambobdnen, lenini sta-
linia dRes. ai, ase ivaniSvili
dRes aris saakaSvili Tavisi gam-
yidveli, antierovnuli politi-
kuri ZalebiT, romelic garSemo
Semoikriba; Tavisi pingvinis moy-
varuli uazro azrebiT; Tavisi
5,5 mlrd-iT; Tavisi amerikeli mo-
kavSireebiT da cereus mfarvelo-
biT. es yvelaze saSiSia, imitom
rom es ers katastrofisken miere-
keba. saakaSvilma ukve gadagvag-
do ufskrulSi. ivaniSvils axla
meore ufskrulis piras mivyavarT,
iqidan wixlis kvrasa da gadaSve-
bas gvipirebs. me saerTod ar ma-
Relvebs, vin ras ityvis. magali-
Tad, rom amboben, naTelaSvili iva-
niSvils rom akritikebs, saakaS-
vilTan aris Sekrulio, vacxadeb,
amgvari frazebiT tyuilad dai-
xarjebian. me rom Tavis droze
aseTi avyia, gulboroti xalxis-
Tvis ar mesmina, romlebic ambob-
dnen, ai, saakaSvils rom akritikeb,
SevardnaZesTan xar Sekruli, ra-
tom ar dgaxar saakaSvilis gver-
diT da aman rom gamaCera me da ise
ver moviqeci, rogorc saWiro iyo,
imitom daiqca qveyana. axla me aRar
gavCerdebi aranairi braldebiT,
Tundac im braldebiT, rom saakaS-
vilTan var TiTqos Sekruli da imi-
tom vakritikeb ivaniSvils. gamo-
ricxulia, es argumenti aRar gama-
Cerebs.
_ Tu saakaSvilic da ivaniS-
vilic _ orive amerikuli proeqtia
da formaluri CanacvlebisTvis em-
zadebian, ratom iRebs ase gamale-
biT mmarTveli gundi araerT ka-
nons ivaniSvilis pirovnebidan ga-
momdinare da ratom aviwroeben ase
mis mxardamWerebs?
_ Tqven ar gaxsovT, rom ori-
ve _ igor giorgaZec da aslan aba-
SiZec ruseTidan imarTebodnen. sa-
jarod isinic rogor Wamdnen er-
TmaneTs, esec gemaxsovrebaT. abaSi-
Zem giorgaZes teraqtis mowyobac
daabrala. es _ saerTo patroni,
saerTod ar niSnavs imas, rom im ymeb-
Si harmoniaa da urTierTsiyvaru-
li. piriqiT, konkurenciaa ivaniS-
vilsa da saakaSvils Soris, vin uf-
ro daumtkicebs Tavis patrons er-
Tgulebas da vin ufro aulokavs
ukanals ZaRlurad. ai, amaSi ejib-
rebian ivaniSvili da saakaSvili
amerikasTan mimarTebiT. iseve, ro-
gorc moskovSi mokalaTebuli mTe-
li es qarTuli biznesbozbanda, daw-
yebuli ebraliZiT, gagrZelebuli
xubutiaTi da damTavrebuli zurab
wereTliT, iakobaSviliT, erTmane-
Tis mudmiv kbenaSia arian, vin wava
kremlis karze pirvel kuratorad
saqarTvelosi.
_ konkretulad ris safuZvel-
ze amtkicebT, rom ivaniSvili qar-
Tuli saqmisTvis ar modis xelisuf-
lebaSi, amis damadasturebeli rea-
luri informaciebi gaqvT?
_ es aris fulmadidebelTa
ocneba. es ar aris aranairi qarTu-
li ocneba. vimeoreb, qarTuli oc-
neba namdvilad ar aris, rom erT
Salva naTelaSvili:
`ivaniSvili burjanaZes basis
davalebiT ar ikarebs~
mSvenier Rames, Cemi didi pativis-
cemis miuxedavad, koba daviTaSvi-
li, zviad ZiZiguri, irakli alasa-
nia da respublikelebi gadaiqcnen
oficialur milionerebad. da es
moxdes Sobis wina Rames, maSin, ro-
ca Sobas Cveni xalxis didi nawili
mSieri Sexvda. Cveni Txovna ivaniS-
vilisadmi, rom modi, saaxalwlo
ocneba cota avusruloT xalxs da
300-300 lari gadauricxe TiTo ga-
Wirvebul ojaxs, sul 900 aTasi oja-
xia aseTi aRricxuli, cinizmiT iqna
miRebuli nariyalas sasaxleSi. es
iyo periodi, sanam gadaricxvebi Se-
iZleboda da is cnobili kanoni Za-
laSi ar iyo Sesuli, romelic am
process krZalavs. samagierod, iva-
niSvilma am politikosebs gadau-
ricxa milionebi.
_ opoziciuri partiebis na-
wili fiqrobs, rom ivaniSvilma SeZ-
lo opoziciis didi nawilis gaer-
Tianeba da es dRes qveyanas, poli-
tikur process Zalian sWirdeba.
_ es aris adamiani, romelmac
SeZlo mRvdeli gaponis rolis Ses-
ruleba, isedac daqsaqsuli, ususu-
ri da erTmaneTs dapirispirebuli,
areul-dareuli opoziciis kidev
ufro erTmaneTze gadakideba da
dajaxeba.
_ batono Salva, modiT, visa-
ubroT taqtikaze, romelic biZina
ivaniSvilma saxalxo krebasTan mi-
marTebiT gamokveTa. ivaniSvili
amiT aRiarebs, rom misTvis krebaSi
Semavali liderebi misaRebia da
maTTan TanamSromloba unda, oRond
_ nino burjanaZis gareSe. es swori
da politikaSi miRebuli taqtikaa?
_ es aris uzneo pozicia. es
aris provokatoroba da mRvdeli
gaponoba. rogor SeiZleba amis Tqma.
_ am JestiT ivaniSvilma nino
burjanaZe, ase vTqvaT, prorusuli
imijis mqone lideris gamo gariya?
_ araferi prorusuli poli-
tikosi nino burjanaZe ar aris. pro-
rusuli TviTon ufroa. iq iSova
miliardebi. nino burjanaZe aris
gaqanebuli natoisti da antirusu-
li moRvawe. mTelma msofliom icis
amis Sesaxeb. burjanaZem CauSala
dsT-is Seqmnis 20 wlis iubile pe-
terburgSi. sityviT gamovida da
CaSala.
_ Tqveni saubridan gamodis,
rom esec amerikelebis dakveTaa,
ivaniSvilma burjanaZe gverdze ar
daiyenos. asea?
_ Tavis droze burjanaZec ame-
rikelebis kuratorobis qveS iyo,
magram, mas Semdeg, rac is putins
Sexvda, maTi ndoba dakarga. ai, es
momenti ki realobaa. axla amerike-
lebi eubnebian ivaniSvils, burja-
naZe ar miikaroo. piradad jon basi
eubneba, amerikis elCi.
_ cru braldebaa Tqveni misa-
marTiT, naTelaSvili da burjanaZe
xelisuflebis scenarSi jdebian da
saakaSvilis TamaSs TamaSoben, ro-
ca quCis aqciebze arian orientire-
bulio? anu am ori politikuri Za-
liT saakaSvili Tavis saqmes gaike-
Tebso.
_ me geubnebiT: saakaSvili da
amerika Tavis saqmes gaikeTebs biZi-
na ivaniSvilis meSveobiT, romelic
zis mkvidrad ofisSi, gaCaCxuli aqvs
fexebi, xalxSi ar gamodis da ar
iwvevs mitings. es unda saakaSvilsa
da amerikas, rom arCevnebis gayal-
beba naklebi skandalebis fonze wa-
vides. faqtia, quCa amerikisa da sa-
akaSvilis mteri. quCaSi siwynare _
es aris amerikisa da saakaSvilis
ocneba. ai, es aris ocneba.
raze SeTanxmdnen saakaSvili da ivaniSvili