Aa history Lovers 2010 moderators Nancy Olson and Glenn F. Chesnut page
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whom I know and who is alive. > > Nor do I find, at the place where he ought to be, Chet H (Apr 4 1949) whom I know and who is alive. > > Nor do I find Mel B. (Apr 15 1950) whom many of us know and who is certainly alive -- in fact he's speaking in Wapokoneta soon. > > Nor do I find Clancy I. (Oct 31 [I think] 1958) whom most of AA knows and who is certainly alive. > > I think it might repay inquiry to check out all those on the list with dates before the longest-sober living person we have found, but I'm not entirely hopeful we'll come up with someone. > > And who WAS Cynthia C? > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6493. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Big Book Disussion group, Barking Saturday night. From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/27/2010 5:38:00 PM
the
term moral pyschology. I would suggest we look to William James for Silkworth's understanding:
religion, to gain an assurance, are so many phrases which denote the process, gradual or sudden, by which a self hitherto divided, and consciously wrong inferior and unhappy, becomes unified and consciously right superior and happy, in consequence of its firmer hold uponreligious realities. This at least is what conversion signifies in general terms, whether or not we believe that a direct divine operation is needed to bring such a moral change about.
Reclamation of the Alcoholic By William D. Silkworth, M.D., New York, N.Y. Medical Record, April 21, 1937
patient
knows he has reached a lasting conclusion, and experiences a sense of great relief. These individuals, introverts for the most part, whose interests center entirely in themselves, once they have made their decision, frequently ask how they can help others. Case IV (Hospital No. 1152). - A broker, who had earned as much as $25,000 a year, and had come, through alcohol, to a position where he was being supported by his wife, presented himself for treatment carrying with him two books on philosophy from which he hoped to get a new inspiration: His desire to discontinue alcohol was intense, and he certainly made every effort within his own capabilities do to so. Following the course of treatment in which the alcohol and toxic products were eliminated and his craving counteracted, he took
up moral psychology. At first, he found it difficult to rehabilitate himself financially, as his old friends had no confidence in his future conduct. Later he was given an opportunity, and is now a director in a large corporation. He gives part of his income to help others in his former condition, and he has gathered about him a group of over fifty men, all free from their former alcoholism through the application of this method of treatment and "moral psychology."
patients
who have joined or initiated such groups the change has been spectacular. God Bless John B --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "martinholmes76@..." > > where did the term "the need for moral psychology" come from in the Dr's Opinion? >
++++Message 6494. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Question regarding Area appointing trusted servants rather than electing.... From: Jim Robbins . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/27/2010 2:44:00 PM
> > Hi everyone! > > I have a question but first here is the scenario. I am truly not > looking for a debate, just if anyone has any experience with this and > could point me in the correct direction...... > > Our District is wanting to change our service structure to where the > current chairman "appoints" the treasurer and secretary of the > district. In the past these positions have been filled through > elections. The rationale is that the chairman/person would be able to > appoint people to these positions that he/she feels comfortable with > and personally knows that they can perform the dutites. Tradition 2 > states, in part, that "....our leaders are but trusted servants they > do not govern..." One (of the many) definitions of govern it to > "appoint." What if there are two people equally qualified in every way > but the chairperson chose his/her buddy because they are comfortable? > > Now the question. After reading the scenario, does anyone know where I > could find out more about this and educate myself? Is there anything > in literature anywhere that has dealt with this in the past? I would > greatly appreciate hearing from you and pointing me in the right > research direction. > > Thank you for everything that is done in this group! It is such a > treasure trove of information!! > > Yours in the fellowship > Donna W. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6495. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Burning desire From: James R . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/28/2010 12:12:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The phrase "burning desire" occurs numerous times in "The Law of Success" by Napoleon Hill, a protege of Andrew Carnegie, beginning of page 55. The book was published in 1928. http://www.archive.org/stream/Law_Of_Success_in_16_Lessons/law-of-success-na pole\
The phrase also occurs in the first paragraphs of chapter 1 of "Think and Grow
Rich", also by Hill, published by the Ralston Society in 1938: 'TRULY, "thoughts are things," and powerful things at that, when they are mixed
with definiteness of purpose, persistence, and a BURNING DESIRE for their translation into riches, or other material objects. 'A little more than thirty years ago, Edwin C. Barnes discovered how true it is that men really do THINK AND GROW RICH. His discovery did not come about at one sitting. It came little by little, beginning with a BURNING DESIRE to become a business associate of the great Edison.' (Emphasis in the original) Hill was the author of popular "self-help" "how-to-succeed-in-business" books
through the 20s, 30s and into the 40s. Perhaps someone can indicate any evidence
that Bill W. or someone else in early AA read these books. It certainly sounds
like the sort of publication that might have attracted Bill's attention. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6496. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Burning desire From: Charlie Parker . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/27/2010 2:42:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Another opinion: I believe that the term "Burning Desire" comes from oral tradition AA and has filtered from the treatment centers into the Discussion Meeting format. It is certainly not a requirement to ask for "burning desires" at the end of a discussion meeting. There is a certain type of personality common in AA that will always wait till the last minute to share. Where I come from we say "If you have a burning desire then get with someone after the meeting". It is also worth pointing out that in the reference posted earlier about our early days they only set apart ONE NIGHT to let the newcomer talk about his problems. The rest of the time they were trying to grow in understanding and effectiveness in carrying this message to the alcoholic who still suffered. Maybe if these folks today were busier carrying the message they wouldn't have so many "burning issues". Charlie P. Austin, Tx
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kimball ROWE Sent: Friday, April 23, 2010 12:50 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Burning desire WARNING: OPINION FOLLOWS I do not know where "burning desire" came from, nor who spoke it first. But I do believe that "burning desires," as I understand them, have been with us from the very start. In the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous, pg 159-160, it describes two types of meetings (similar to closed and open meetings). The description that best fits the open meeting talks about a "time and a place where new people might bring their problems." This is my understanding of a "burning desire."
Seeing much of each other, scarce an evening passed that someone's home did not shelter a little gathering of men and women, happy in their release, and constantly thinking how they might present their discovery to some newcomer. In addition to these casual get-togethers, it became customary to set apart one night a week for a meeting to be attended by anyone or everyone interested in a spiritual way of life. Aside from fellowship and sociability, the prime object was to provide a time and place where new people might bring their problems.
From: Dolores To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 8:42 AM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Burning desire Greetings, Thank you all for the the information that I have received thru History Lovers. I have a question, where does the phrase "burning desire" come from? Who used it first? At the beginning of meetings, one often hears the phrase used, "does anyone have a burning desire?" What does this really mean? as I often find it misused by some members to complain about other members.
Ebby?
From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/28/2010 11:00:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Itâs poetic license and not historical accuracy. Ebby and Bill did not drink all that much together (save for the notorious airplane incident from Albany, NY to Manchester, VT). Ebby (and his family) lived in Albany, NY and Vermont and Bill lived in Brooklyn, NY some 140 miles or so from Albany. The same inaccuracy was contained in âMy Name Is Bill W.â Ebby (and his family) were actually close to Lois and her family due to their
vacationing and socialization at Emerald Lake each summer over a number of years.
inaccuracies (I was very disappointed). Havenât seen the movie yet.
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Theede Sent: Monday, April 26, 2010 1:15 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: When Love Is Not Enough - Ebby? Hi: I was sort of surprised to see that the film shown on the evening of April 25 on CBS portrayed Ebby as having such a continous contact with Bill all through his drinking days. I have read Mel B's book about Ebby, and it mentions nothing about him being employed at the same brokerage house in NYC as Bill at the same
time as Bill was employed there. Ernie Kurtz's book about AA (Not God) also mentions that Ebby and Bill hadn't seen each other for a few years when Ebby showed up to see him in 1934, stating that Bill hadn't seen Ebby since a Burr
and Burton school renunion. ????? --- On Thu, 4/15/10, Soberholic From: Soberholic Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: When Love Is Not Enough, premier Irvington NY, April 25
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, April 15, 2010, 9:13 AM Looking forward to see this magnificent story of Lois (and Bill) over here too.
Scandinavian and other European languages, too. This was not the case with "My Name Is Bill W." - the dvd was available with Spanish and French subtitles only. Makes me sad because of the significance of the Fellowship for so many of us in Europe, too. There was an initiative to get all the paper work concerning rights done in publishing a dvd with Scandinavian subtitles in the case of "My Name Is Bill W." but it led nowhere. So far, at least. Keep the good thing going on! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6498. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Re: When Love Is Not Enough - Ebby?
From: LES COLE . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/29/2010 9:39:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Art and others: You are not alone in using a critical eye regarding the movie, as well as the
book(s) upon which it was based. There are/were several inaccuracies, and some of you may recall that I did a specific historical critique of the Lois Book when it was first released in 2005. I had e-mail correspondence with Bill Borchert at that time, as well as with Stepping Stones folks who gave the book a glowing endorsement in the FORWARD. Supposedly, the publisher, Hazelden, was going to make historical corrections when a second printing was done. I'm currently trying to get a copy of the 2008 printing to see what was changed, if anything. The paperback version I received today is the same as the original hardback as far as I have
searched thus far. I don't want to further challenge Bill Borchert personally (although he has now
written THREE major stories about AA history...My Name is Bill, The Lois Wilson
Story, and this movie: When Love Is Not Enough), but I do want to let AA historians know what I personally know about the Burnhams, and Vermont AA history...thus my own book, in a few months, which covers such things.
original 2005 text. My concern, as a current historian, is that it is very likely that such distortions will be taken as facts (good history) unless we Do share our concerns, and with members of AAHL particularly, because we can share
openly as a closed group. Borchert enjoys a lot of special support in getting
out his messages, and I'm sure that many folks will think he is the one to believe. That makes me rather sad! During the movie I lost track of just what time-frames were associated with certain scenes, but I recall that Rogers (Lois' brother) was in the scene where Ebby was depicted in the kitchen talking with Bill. If that is so, then there is specific inaccuracy there. We all know that Ebby had that talk in 1934. Well, in 1932-34 Rog was living with my family continuously in Wallingford, Vermont. Rog went to live in his family house in Manchester shortly after the 1929 crash. He was working in a small woodworking mill in Vermont. That is where my father met him and thus we became a "family" together for years. Also,
In 1933 my brother and I visited in Ebby's house (next door to us) with him in Manchester. His court troubles started at that time. He didn't go to NYC until just before that 1934 kitchen meeting. He was staying with Rowland Hazard in Glastenbury, VT just before going to NYC.
about Ebby being a classmate of Bill at Burr & Burton Seminary in Manchester. In 2007 I went to talk with the archivist at B&B when I was researching my book, and learned there is no record of Ebby ever being a student there.(?) That doesn't mean that he wasn't, just because records are scarce, but I do have my mother's actual B&B catalog for years 1911-12 listing student names, and Ebby's name is not there. (My mother was a high school classmate of Bill at Burr and Burton. She graduated in 1912, but Bill didn't until 1913, after much travail.) Another bit of book-minutia relates to the oft-mentioned airplane trip which Ebby and Bill took from Albany to Manchester to appear before the welcoming committee at the opening of the new airport. Last August while I was again in Vermont doing research, I found among the Manchester Journal newspaper archives, the article (with a picture) of the Inaugural Landing ...and it was made by a well-known pilot from Boston on July 4, 1928. These may seem as minutia, but they are examples of how the public may be impressed by poor history, rather than real history. GLENN: I hope you will encourage more dialogue on this subject of historical accuracy. Les Cole Colorado Springs, CO To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com From: arthur.s@live.com Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 22:00:26 -0500 Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: When Love Is Not Enough - Ebby? It’s poetic license and not historical accuracy. Ebby and Bill did not drink all that much together (save for the notorious airplane incident from Albany, NY to Manchester, VT). Ebby (and his family) lived in Albany, NY and Vermont and Bill lived in Brooklyn, NY some 140 miles or so from Albany. The same inaccuracy was contained in “My Name Is Bill W.” Ebby (and his family) were actually close to Lois and her family due to their
vacationing and socialization at Emerald Lake each summer over a number of years.
inaccuracies (I was very disappointed). Haven’t seen the movie yet.
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Theede Sent: Monday, April 26, 2010 1:15 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: When Love Is Not Enough - Ebby? Hi: I was sort of surprised to see that the film shown on the evening of April 25 on CBS portrayed Ebby as having such a continous contact with Bill all through his drinking days. I have read Mel B's book about Ebby, and it mentions nothing about him being employed at the same brokerage house in NYC as Bill at the same
time as Bill was employed there. Ernie Kurtz's book about AA (Not God) also mentions that Ebby and Bill hadn't seen each other for a few years when Ebby showed up to see him in 1934, stating that Bill hadn't seen Ebby since a Burr
and Burton school renunion. ????? --- On Thu, 4/15/10, Soberholic From: Soberholic Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: When Love Is Not Enough, premier Irvington NY, April 25
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, April 15, 2010, 9:13 AM Looking forward to see this magnificent story of Lois (and Bill) over here too.
Scandinavian and other European languages, too. This was not the case with "My Name Is Bill W." - the dvd was available with Spanish and French subtitles only. Makes me sad because of the significance of the Fellowship for so many of us in Europe, too. There was an initiative to get all the paper work concerning rights done in publishing a dvd with Scandinavian subtitles in the case of "My Name Is Bill W." but it led nowhere. So far, at least. Keep the good thing going on! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6499. . . . . . . . . . . . minority voice report From: doclandis@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/1/2010 11:14:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I am curious as to where, when and how the use of the "minority voice report" was installed as a function of AA business meetings. The question arose from a vote that was recently taken in our District Meeting regarding an AA function over the Founders Day weekend that includes a history skit, and then a spaghetti dinner. Apparently a few members felt it was not OK for the District to ask for donations to cover the cost of the meal, and when the project was approved by a vote of 5-2, those who did not support the project have demanded a "minority voice report" at the following months meeting. While I am pretty well versed in Roberts Rules of Order, I cannot recall any
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