sponsor be with the sponsee for his first couple times chairing. Some
groups use six months and some do it the same as my home group. "Each group
(blhump272 at sctv.coop)
Read the pamphlet "The AA Group." This is a good guideline for such
questions. It is up to the group to decide guidelines. There really
are no "rules" per se.
Ben H.
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++++Message 6226. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Chauncey Costello from Pontiac,
Michigan
From: BobR . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/16/2010 8:44:00 PM
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Chauncey was one of the speakers at the
-- believe it or not -- young people's panel
at the 2005 International convention. I think
one of the young people was 16 with 4 years
sobriety and he had something like 61.
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++++Message 6227. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Recovery rates: prescreening was
common in early AA
From: ricktompkins . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/16/2010 6:22:00 PM
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Thanks Laurie,
Knickerbocker Hospital in NYC hired Dr. Silkworth around 1940 and your
un-sourced quote could very well be describing the newly-formed Alcoholic
Ward of that hospital.
Someone else here at 'aahistorylovers' has more details that can come from
Dale Mitchell's biography of him (I have it somewhere but can't find it
right now to give you more info).
Knickerbocker cost much less than Towns' rates, and Dr. Silkworth effected a
partnership with the AAs of NYC for their nonstop visits there.
On a lighter note, in case you've ever heard of a place named "Dusty's
Tavern" it refers to the name of the ward's Day Room.
And in Akron, St. Thomas Hospital established an alcohol treatment ward
under Dr. Bob's direction with very much the same arrangements as
Knickerbocker (but with the added blessing of Sister Ignatia's efforts). I
don't know how Akron City Hospital handled drunks after the first few years
of our 'AA Method' post-1939.
Lower costs, higher patients' responsibility (and commitment) for their own
recovery, and substantial involvement from AA volunteers seemed to be the
successful model that worked well for the many prospects who were placed
into hospitals first before coming to AA in the early days of our
Fellowship.
The Big Book speaks about pre-screening of prospects but in the different,
larger term of 'qualifying' the newcomers on whether or not they were ready
for surrender and recovery.
Silkworth wrote it early on and best, in my opinion, that "those who came to
scoff remained to pray."
Rick, Illinois
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++++Message 6228. . . . . . . . . . . . Grave emotional and mental
disorders, delusionary thinking
From: Steven Harris . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/14/2010 2:29:00 PM
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Could someone explain in more detail what is
meant on p. 58 of the Big Book when it refers
to people "who suffer from grave emotional and
mental disorders," and when it refers on p. 62
of the Big Book to "self-delusion"?
What kind of personality disorders, delusionary
disorders, and so on, is the Big Book talking
about?
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++++Message 6229. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Grave emotional and mental
disorders, delusionary thinking
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/16/2010 11:17:00 PM
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As I understand it, the question you are asking is, what were they
talking about, in terms of modern psychological terminology, when they
referred on p. 58 of the Big Book to people "who suffer from grave
emotional and mental disorders," and when they referred on p. 62 of
the Big Book to "self-delusion"?
This basic question has been asked a number of times over the years in
the AAHistoryLovers, in various kinds of ways, most recently in
Message #6195
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/6195
And so far, nobody has ever written a message back giving any
satisfactory answer.
Let me try to give you a different kind of answer, however. There were
three basic models of alcoholism treatment in the early days, which had
extremely high success rates, and which were positively disposed
towards AA.
1. Sister Ignatia's treatment program at St. Thomas Hospital in Akron.
They had a psychiatrist on staff, and when an alcoholic came in who
needed psychiatric help in addition to guidance in working the steps,
they sent that person to the hospital psychiatrist. There is a chapter on
her program in Bill Swegan's book:
http://hindsfoot.org/kBS1.html
2. The Lackland Model developed by A.A. member Bill Swegen and
famous psychiatrist Dr. Louis Jolyon "Jolly" West (later copied by
Captain Joseph Zuska and A.A. member Commander Richard Jewell
for their Navy alcoholism treatment program at Long Beach, with equal
success).
http://hindsfoot.org/kBS5.html
In this treatment method, leadership of the treatment was shared
between a good psychiatrist and an A.A. member with a lot of quality
time in the program. Bill Swegan reports that only a certain percentage
of the alcoholics whom they treated actually had severe psychiatric
problems, and that usually the only people who could actually profit
from psychiatric help were those who were a little better educated and
more aware of their own emotions. If the alcoholic's psychiatric
problems were crippling and could not be treated well enough to
restore that person to active duty in the Air Force, the person was
denied treatment for his alcoholism and discharged from the Air Force.
3. The Minnesota Model also tried to combine psychological help and
A.A. participation, starting around 1954 at Willmar State Hospital in
Minnesota, with great success. In the early 1960's, Hazelden also
began using this method, also with great success.
But then in 1966, Lynn C., who had continued to insist that Hazelden's
treatment regimen remain "pure A.A.," finally left the center, and the
mental health professionals came to strongly dominate Hazelden from
that point on. The philosophy became one of treating "chemical
dependency" using many different disciplines and treatment modalities.
For myself, I'm not sure that the present Hazelden program could still
be termed the classic "Minnesota Model" in any kind of way.
See http://hindsfoot.org/kBS5.html and William L. White, Slaying the
Dragon: The History of Addiction Treatment and Recovery in America
(Bloomington, Illinois: Chestnut Health Systems and Lighthouse
Institute, 1998).
But it is certainly clear that the combination of good A.A.,
together with good psychological help for the small percentage
who need it, can be a very powerful and successful combination
in the treating of alcoholism and drug addiction.
- - - -
The conclusion I think we can draw, is that the three most successful
treatment programs which were developed during the early period of
AA history, combined total immersion into the AA fellowship, along
with psychiatric care for the small percentage who needed it. Having
even fairly severe psychological or mental problems was hardly ever
regarded as an automatic indication that one would never ever be able
to work the AA program or stay sober using the twelve steps.
In my own experience, I have seen people get sober and stay sober
who were severely schizophrenic (I remember a woman in a meeting I
used to attend who heard one of the voices in her head telling her one
day to bite off one of her own fingers, so she did it -- but she eventually
got sober, and stayed sober, and had a fair amount of serenity most of
the time). Also numerous people who were deeply bipolar. A young
woman with Down's syndrome. I used to sponsor a person with
ADHD (Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder). Borderline
Personality Disorder.
So if you have an alcohol or drug program AND you also have severe
psychological problems, DO NOT give up hope and fall into despair,
and start saying to yourself, "Oh, I will never ever be able get clean and
sober."
Instead, (a) start attending AA meetings and working the program, and
(b) get a good psychotherapist or psychologist or psychiatrist and let
that person help you too. Throughout AA history, people who have
done that, and done it as honestly as they could, have consistently
found sobriety, a good life, and a considerable amount of happiness.
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++++Message 6230. . . . . . . . . . . . Properly identifying Jim who put
whiskey into milk
From: royslev . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/16/2010 10:29:00 PM
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It seems standard to identify "a friend we
shall call Jim" in pages 35-37 of the Big Book
(in Chapter 3 "More About Alcoholism")
with Ralph Furlong, whose story "Another
Prodigal Story" appeared in the first edition
of the Big Book.
But the only link I can see between those two
figures is that in "Another Prodigal Story" the
protagonist drinks an ice cream soda AFTER
drinking heavily simply in order to cover up
the smell of the booze on his breath, while
Jim in "More About Alcoholism" thinks that if
he mixes whiskey in milk, he can drink that
mixture without getting drunk.
That is not the same thing at all. That
certainly does not mean that these two are
the same person.
Chapter 3 "More About Alcoholism" says that
Jim had "inherited a lucrative automobile
agency," lost it through his drinking, but
then got sober for a while, and "began to
work as a salesman for the business he had
lost through drinking" (Big Book p. 35).
"Another Prodigal Story"
http://silkworth.net/bbstories/357.html
says nothing about the author ever owning
an automobile agency, losing it, having
to go back to work there as a salesman,
getting sober in AA, or having a slip and
being committed back to the asylum once
again.
How could this be the same person?
I have checked with several good AA historians
-- Lee C., Mel B., Dick B., Ray G. -- and none
of them know of any other evidence which could
be cited which would link "Jim" in Chapter 3 of
the Big Book with the person who wrote the
story "Another Prodigal Story."
And while we are at it, why is the author
of "Another Prodigal Story" identified as
Ralph Furlong? What is the evidence for that
identification?
Both in my own research, and in talking with
some good AA historians and archivists, I
have not yet discovered any reasons for
identifying "Jim" on pp. 35-37 of the Big
Book with the author of "Another Prodigal
Story," nor have I discovered any reasons why
either of these people should be identified
as a man named Ralph Furlong.
Can anybody come up with any evidence in
support of any of these identifications?
Thanks for your responses.
Roy L. ( class of '78 )
- - - -
From G.C. the moderator:
This same question has been asked before,
although not nearly as clearly as you have
done it, see Message 2187, date: Sat Feb 12,
2005, from
(lghforum at earthlink.net)
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/2187
"But how can you tell that Ralph F. is the
'Jim' who thinks 'he could take whiskey if
only he mixed it with milk!' on page 37 of
the BB 3rd Edition?"
Nobody answered the question when it was
asked back there in 2005, and now Roy L. has
asked it again, so this question is still
crying out for an answer. The answer may be
simple, but what is it?
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++++Message 6231. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Chauncey Costello from Pontiac,
Michigan
From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/16/2010 10:36:00 PM
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My recollection is that Chauncey C. was the longest sober member at Toronto
2005
and died in 2006. Did he get sober at Dr. Bob's [house] in Akron in 1941? He
was succeeded as oldest by Easy E. down in Alabama, who got sober, I think,
in
Nov 1942, and died in 2008? I don't know of any living members who got sober
before the end of WW2 (and stayed sober) -- there is in Bristol,
Pennsylvania,
Clyde B. who got sober in Boston June 20 1946 and wrote a book a dozen years
ago
-- SIXTY YEARS A DRUNK FIFTY YEARS SOBER (under the pen-name Freeman
Carpenter).
He's the longest sober I've met.
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++++Message 6232. . . . . . . . . . . . How quickly should the twelve steps
be taken?
From: nuevenueve@ymail.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/15/2010 9:28:00 PM
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Hello Group:
Searching for some hints of an adequate time
extension to take the twelve steps I've found
some indicators v.gr. in Fr. Pfau's "Out of
the Shadow" one year; in John Batterson's
pamphlet 4 weeks; and also 4 weeks in the next
article from a previous group message:
http://www.aabacktobasics.org/B2BArticles.html
Also, heard about AAs starting their 4th step
after 7 or more sobriety years attending meetings.
Are there in the GSO-AA literature some
approaches/suggestions on an average 12 step
timing?
Is this up to the AA member's spiritual development
and to his/her sponsor? Or, in other words, does
AA have a position/recommendation on such a time
range?
Thank you.
P.S. In the Big Book chapter five there's a
continuity indication between steps 3 and 4:
"Though our decision was vital and crucial step,
it could have little permanent effect unless
at once followed by a strenuous effort to face,
and to be rid of, the things in ourselves which
had been blocking us......"
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++++Message 6233. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: minority opinion question
From: bbthumpthump . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/12/2010 12:16:00 AM
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In Area 10 (Colorado) we always ask for Minority Opinion. There is hell to
pay
if you don't. So, yes it is neccesary to ask for Minority Opinion. We too
have
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