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++++Message 6199. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Swedenborgianism and the Burnham
family''s religious beliefs
From: diazeztone . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/2/2010 1:33:00 AM
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In reading this post and a couple of others
I decided to do some reading tonite on the
Swedenborgian religion and their movment.
Wow, very surprising. I wonder how much Lois
and Bill talked about this. I wonder how many
times they attended Swedenborgian church masses
or meetings.
Was Dr. Bob involved in this in any way?
Their religion even included 12 steps to heaven!!
I lookforward to reading this new research also!
LD Pierce
www.aabibligraphy.com
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++++Message 6200. . . . . . . . . . . . Using WorldCat.org to find books in
nearby libraries
From: Charlie C . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/30/2009 8:23:00 AM
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Hi, I've been a college librarian for many years and would like to respond
to
Octoberbabye's request for a book on Silkworth. It's nice to own books, but
borrowing from libraries can work too, and is a lot cheaper :-)
If you want to know how available in libraries a book is, after first
checking your local library catalog, look at www.worldcat.org. This is the
free
public version of a massive shared records site for libraries across the
country. You can look for a specific book or browse for books on a subject
etc.
Once you find something it will tell you what libraries in your zip code
area
own it.
As an example here is the link to the record for the book in question:
http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/51063745
Then you can either borrow the book in person, or, use the universal
"inter-library loan" system to request that your local library get the book
for
you. The record from WorldCat gives you all the info you need to make your
request. Depending on your library, there may be a small fee to process the
request - usually a dollar or two.
Something to think about too is that if you live near a university or
college
library, they often make provision for area residents to use their
collections,
again usually for an annual fee. The college library I work in charges $25 a
year to area residents to be able to borrow our books, not a bad deal
really.
Good luck in all your researches!
Charlie C.IM = route20guy
Go settle down
And quit your triflin' ways
'Cause the boogerman's gonna get you one of these days Kitty Wells, Make up
Your Mind, 1950
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++++Message 6201. . . . . . . . . . . . Minority opinion question
From: cwojohnwalter . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/6/2010 9:19:00 AM
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Is there a recorded precedence in which the
minority opinion was heard and then swayed the
majority opinion enough to change or table the
vote?
I realize that this might happen at the individual
group level often but I am looking for some
documentation of it happening at the Regional or
Higher Level.
I am giving a presentation about the minority
opinion and Concept V and would like to geek it
out as much as possible.
Love and Service - John
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++++Message 6202. . . . . . . . . . . . Is it necessary to ask the floor for
any minority opinion?
From: cwojohnwalter . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/6/2010 9:47:00 AM
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After an issue is debated and all sides of
have been heard and after the vote is taken
and there is a simple or 2/3 majority (whichever
is required) than is it necessary to ask the
floor for the minority to state its opinion if
it so wishes?
I understand the importance of an informed group
conscience as well as substantial unanimity.
But again, my question is: Is it necessary to
ask the floor for the minority to re-state its
opinion once the vote has been taken?
Love and Service - John
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++++Message 6203. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Buddhism (and Hinduism) and AA
From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/2/2010 9:12:00 AM
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"By personal religious affiliation, we include
Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Hindus, and
sprinkling of Moslems and Buddhists ... "
(Big Book, Foreword to second edition, 1955)
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++++Message 6204. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Buddhism (and Hinduism) and AA
From: Aloke Dutt . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/3/2010 7:51:00 AM
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The Ashram Dr. Earle described at the foothill
of Arunachalam is close to Madras(now Chennai)
The famous guru/saint was Raman Maharishi,
more here:
http://www.sriramanamaharshi.org/
- - - -
Original message 6188 from Baileygc23@aol.com
(Baileygc23 at aol.com)
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/6188
... an excerpt from the author of the
"Physician, Heal Thyself!", interview with the
Grapevine (GV). October 1995 edition ....
Dr. Earle: I went back to see Bill and Lois
and Marty M. and some others, and I spent about
eight or nine days back in New York before I
went to Asia. Bill took me to the airport and
on the way there he said, "You know, Earle,
I've been sober longer than anyone else in our
organization. After all I was sober six months
when I met Bob. But," he said, "I don't have
too much peace of mind." He said, "I feel down
in the dumps a hell of a lot."
So I said, "So do I, Bill. I don't have much
serenity either." I was sober by this time
maybe sixteen, seventeen years. He said,
"Do me a favor. When you get over to Asia,
see if you can investigate firsthand, the
various religions in Asia. That means Hinduism,
Buddhism, and Taoism, and Confucianism and
ancestral worship and the whole shebang."
And I said, "All right, I'll do it." And he
said, "Stay in contact with me and maybe we
can find something in those religions. After
all, we've taken from William James, we've
taken from all the Christian religions. Let's
see what these others have."
... I spent a lot of time in Nepal and in
Indonesia. I spent time in India ....
I tried meditation, I read the Bhagavad Gita,
the Vedas -- everything. I went to an ashram on
the southeast coast of India, run by a very
famous guru and saint. There were about a hundred
and fifty East Indians there. I was the only
Westerner and they welcomed me. I wore a dhoti
-- that's a white skirt that men wear --
and I wore one like the rest of them did.
Etc., etc.
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++++Message 6205. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Religion and AA
From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/2/2010 12:22:00 PM
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One of the most important messages in Ernie
Kurtz's great history of AA:
Ernest Kurtz, Not-God: A History of Alcoholics
Anonymous, expanded edition (Center City,
Minnesota: Hazelden, 1991; orig. 1979):
Over the period of the writer's research, one
especially serious question was repeatedly asked
by both old-timers interviewed and others with
whom observations were shared. Perhaps this
question was at least partially inspired by
the brazenness of an attempt to write the
"history" of a still vigorously living
phenomenon, but it was nevertheless a serious
question always seriously asked: How long will
Alcoholics Anonymous last? Might it change so
that it will no longer be Alcoholics Anonymous?"
To be able to pretend to be able to answer
directly would be to claim the mantle of prophet
rather than that of historian: but for all those
who so queried, I can now offer explicitly at
least the intuition that their very questions
as well as this research have suggested.
Alcoholics Anonymous shall survive as long
as its message remains that og the not-Godness
of the wholeness of accepted limitation; and
this itself shall endure so long as A.A.
spiritualizers and its liberals -- its "right"
and its "left" -- maintain in mutual respect
the creative tension that arises from their
willingness to participate even with other of
so different assumptions and temperaments in
the shared honesty of mutual vulnerability
openly acknowledged.
Alcoholics Anonymous will live, in other words,
so long as it is "Alcoholics Anonymous":
"an utter simplicity which encases a complete
mystery" that no one claims perfectly to
understand.
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++++Message 6206. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Religion and AA -- What is AA''s
legal status in the US?
From: grault . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/2/2010 6:18:00 PM
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If available, I'd appreciate a cite to the
New York case you referred to. My understanding
was to the contrary: that although AA IS a
"religious organization" (in the view of the
New York court), there is no legal privilege
because there is no communication intended to
be confidential to a minister, rabbi, priest
or the like.
I also understood that because AA is viewed
as "religious," it has been held by a N.Y. court
to be unconstitutional for a judge to "sentence"
someone to go to meeting for a driving-while-
intoxicated offense.
- - - -
In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com,
"J. Lobdell" wrote:
Of course, the corporation is incorporated under the laws of the State of
New
York and is considered by that State as an religious body, so (I believe)
that
testimony cannot be compelled from members on what was said in a closed
meeting
(there was a court case not too long ago) -- being considered a "religious"
body
has certain advantages, I suppose.
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++++Message 6207. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Religion and AA
From: pvttimt@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/2/2010 2:39:00 PM
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From: Tim, Jon Markle, Laurie Andrews, jax760,
and Charlie C.
- - - -
From: Tim ,pvttimt@aol.com> (pvttimt at aol.com)
In an attempt to tease out the nuance between
"religion" and "spirituality" ...
I see spirituality or spiritual experience as
something that I can have as an individual without
regard to anyone else. My inspiration may come
from nature, or any of many different sources.
Religion seems to begin when two or more people
agree on their own personal spiritual experiences,
sufficient that they choose to join together
and espouse that particular perspective. Then
they seek out others of similar experience to
join them in fellowship.
The unique aspect of AA is that we join the
fellowship only to find that it is not only
permissible to embrace our own personal version
of spirituality, but that we are urged to
do so -- not something that the typical religion
offers.
Tim
- - - -
From: Jon Markle
(serenitylodge at mac.com)
On Dec 28, 2009, at 6:52 PM, Arthur S wrote:
> Etymologically the words "religious" and
> "spiritual" are interchangeable. Search the various dictionary sites on
the
> web and compare the definitions of the two words."
Here's the problem I think.
TODAY, the two words are not necessarily interchangeable. In fact, in most
of
society today, they are not one in the same and have widely different
meanings,
attributes and outcomes.
Perhaps the most egregious of societal attributes, "religion" as we know it
today especially, is highly political. Whereas spirituality is not.
And we know from experience that these two philosophies, religion and
politics,
have no business in an AA meeting. For the most obvious reason: they are
both
anti-recovery, anti "fellowship," by their nature.
Although many "religious" folk will probably tell you they are "spiritual,"
the
same is not true of "spiritual" folks.
Thus the dilemma. And thus the arguments in AA circles.
I see no particular benefit to religious arguments. Because they are ALL an
individual point of view and nothing more. Nothing can be factually proved.
ALSO:
On Dec 28, 2009, at 6:52 PM, Arthur S wrote:
> PS - a final tidbit - what percentage of meetings do you think are held in
> church halls at very nominal rental expense (i.e. Religions extending a
> cooperative and helping hand to AA).
This argument would be a great reason never to have AA in a church. Such
suppositions are why we MUST keep our meetings autonomous and anonymous from
the
facilities in which they meet.
Perhaps more than any one thing you have said, this alone is the very proof
we
must keep religion out of the Rooms.
It seems so obvious to me now, why we must keep this list clean of religious
superstitious pinning. AA is not nor can it ever become religious or
governed
by any religious dogma. If this History list becomes an argument for
religious
involvement in AA, then it has failed in its watchword.
I don't care to debate or discuss it. I just want us to realize this forum
is
not one which should be used to manipulate historical facts in an attempt to
justify religious teachings or interference with organized religion,
especially
those with fundamental, evangelical agendas, in AA.
If anything, a factual study of AA should show the reasons and necessity for
the
separation of religion from AA.
I want us to be clear about that.
Jon Markle/MA
Retired Therapist & SA Counseling
Dual Diagnosis/COD speciality
HS Practitioner, Advisor & Case Consultations
Raleigh, NC
9/9/82
- - - -
From: jenny andrews
(jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com)
Also ... "As a society we must never become so vain as to suppose that we
are
authors and inventors of a new religion. We will humbly reflect that every
one
of AA's principles has been borrowed from ancient sources." (AA Comes of
Age,
page 231 - quoted in As Bill Sees It, page 223).
- - - -
From: "jax760"
(jax760 at yahoo.com)
For an alternative perspective to the "Tablemate" see the Akron Pamphlet
"Spiritual Milestones in AA" c. early 1940s.
"FEW, IF ANY, men or women have completely fulfilled the aims of
Alcoholics Anonymous without at least some grasp of the spiritual, or to use
another term in it's broadest sense, religion. True, there have been some
who
have managed to keep sober simply by mechanical action. But a preponderance
of
evidence points out that until one has some spiritual conviction, and the
more
the better, he takes no joy in his sobriety. Too often we hear an AA remark,
"I
think this is a wonderful program, but I can't understand the spiritual
angle."
To them the religion otherwise know as Alcoholics Anonymous is something
complex, abstract and awesome. They seem to have the impression that
religion,
the spiritual life, is something to be enjoyed only by saints the clergy,
and
perhaps an occasional highly privileged layman. They cannot conceive that it
can
be for the reformed sinner as well. And yet the truth is, the spiritual AA
is
there for all of
us to enjoy.
But, asks the alcoholic, where can I find a simple, step-by-step religious
guide? The Ten Commandments give us a set of Thou Shalts and Thou Shalt
Nots;
the Twelve Steps of AA give us a program of dynamic action; but what about a
spiritual guide?
Of course the answer is that by following the Ten Commandments and Twelve
Steps
to the letter we automatically lead a spiritual life, whether or not we
recognize it."
This pamphlet is still sold at Akron Intergroup.
Attempts to differentiate (by us laymen i.e. AA members) such complex,
multi-dimensional contructs as spirituality and religion or religiousness
are
extremely difficult and any attempt at a single or narrow definition of
either,
which historically have been and are still today quite broadly defined in
dictionaries,(and by sociologists, pyschologists and everyone else outside
12
step recovery) reflects a limited perspective or perhaps an agenda
(spirituality
is good and religion is bad). The majority of people in the USA do not
differentiate between these two wonderful, dynamic and empowering
constructs.
Note 1
"In critically judging of the value of religious phenomena, it is very
important
to insist on the distinction between religion as an individual personal
function, and religion as an institutional, corporate, or tribal product."
William James - VRE
James called it "religion as an individual personal function", the Oxford
Group
called it "personal religion", we in AA call it "spirituality". In each
instance
we are talking about the same thing.........a personal religious experience,
or
if you prefer a spiritual experience. As "a way of life" they are indeed one
in
the same.
Those interested may wish to read Bill's "Three Talks to The Medical
Societies"
(P-6) and see how Bill described the AA program of recovery to educated men
of
medicine and science.
Bill used the words spiritual and religious interchangeably in most of his
writings (see p.569 AA) and never once have I read anything from Bill that
said
"AA is Spiritual not Religious" (he was way too smart to engage in such
controvery) in fact I have found dozens of citeable instances of Bill
describing
"the work" as "religious" as well as dozens of instances of him describing
the
program or its actions as "spiritual." It should be no surprise to anyone
that
drunks have always had trouble with anything "religious" including the word
or
idea. Thus AA adpated the word and idea "spiritual" and
"spirituality" to suit the needs of the society.
"The basic principles of A.A., as they are known today, were borrowed mainly
from the fields of religion and medicine, though some ideas upon which
success
finally depended were the result of noting the behaviors and needs of the
Fellowship itself." – p. 16 12&12
Whether or not AA is spiritual, religious, both or neither is best left to
the
outside experts. Just because AA or its members, some or all, majority or
minority, say ...xyz.... doesn't make it so.
Has anyone seen or would like to comment on the many (I believe eight) major
legal cases involving the establishment clause that have been tried in the
last
twenty five years in either state supreme or federal circuit appeals courts?
How
does the legal system in the USA define AA?
IN THE MATTER OF DAVID GRIFFIN, APPELLANT, v.
THOMAS A. COUGHLIN III, AS COMMISSIONER OF THE
NEW YORK STATE DEPARTMENT OF CORRECTIONAL
SERVICES, ET AL. RESPONDENTS. 1996 N.Y. Int. 137.
June 11, 1996. No. 73 [1996 NY Int. 137].
Decided June 11, 1996
"On this appeal we hold that, under the Establishment Clause of the United
States Constitution's First Amendment, an atheist or agnostic inmate may not
be
deprived of eligibility for expanded family visitation privileges for
refusing
to participate in the sole alcohol and drug addiction program at his State
correctional facility when the program necessarily entails mandatory
attendance
at and participation in a curriculum which adopts in major part the
religious-oriented practices and precepts of Alcoholics Anonymous
(hereinafter
A.A.).
In December of 1996, the U. S. Supreme Court turned down, without comment,
New
York's appeal to have the Griffin v Coughlin ruling overturned.
In several of these landmark cases attempts to differentiate
"spiritual" from "religious" were rejected by the courts.
With that I have ceased fighting anyone or anything and have resigned from
the
debating society.
BTW, for the record, I have no problem with either religion or spirituality.
Identify and don't compare?
God Bless
Note 1
Conceptualizing Religion and Spirituality: Points of Commonality, Points of
Departure Peter C. Hill, Kenneth I. Pargament, Ralph W. Hood, Jr., Michael
E.
McCullough, James P. Swyers, David B. Larson & Brian J. Zinnbauer
Journal for the Theory of Social Behavior 30:1 0021-8308
- - - -
From: Charlie C
(route20guy at yahoo.com)
I think it would be quite interesting to pursue this discussion in terms of
what spiritual and religious notions were in the the 1930s, and what they
are
today. My impression from their biographies is that while both Dr. Bob and
Bill
were rather eclectic browsers in spiritual matters, e.g. their interest in
Ouija
boards, they were both also both respectful of and knowledgeable about the
primary organized religion of their day, Christianity..
Things are different today of course, there are many spiritual and religious
"options" as it were that were not so present in the 1930s. I would like to
see
more of that same respect, and lack of prejudice (see p49 in the Big Book
for
example) in AA today that Bill and Bob had. In my 21 years of sobriety I
have
heard an unpleasant amount of careless, ignorant and disrespectful talk
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