Microsoft Word Elisabeth Kubler-Ross On Death And Dying doc

PATIENT: Well, I would like to do that ... Oh ... (patient does not want to leave) ... You were going 
to ask me some questions you didn't ask. 
 
DOCTOR: I did? 
 
PATIENT: Um hm. 
 
DOCTOR: What did I forget? 
 
PATIENT: I understood from what you said that she was in charge not only of this seminar but- 
Well, what are you in charge of, let's put it that way. Somebody was interested in the relationship 
between religion and psychiatry. 
 
DOCTOR: Yes, I'm beginning to understand. You see, a lot of people have different concepts of 
what we are doing here. What I am most interested in is to talk with sick people or dying patients. 
To get to understand them a little bit more. To teach the hospital personnel how we can help them 
better, and the only way we can teach it is to have the patient be our teacher, you know. 
 
CHAPLAIN: Were there questions you had about relationships of religion 
 
PATIENT: Yes, I had some. For instance, one of the things was that the average patient is only 
going to call a chaplain, he's not going to call the psychiatrist if he happens to feel bad. 
 
DOCTOR: That's right. 
 
PATIENT: All right. Then the question was asked me before by you or someone, ah, how do I feel 
about the service of the chaplains. And I would say that I was dumbfounded to find that I requested 
a chaplain in the middle of the night and there was no night chaplain. I mean this is just 
unbelievable to me, unbelievable. Because when does a man need a chaplain? Only at night, 
believe me. That's the time when you get down with those boxing gloves and have it out with 
yourself. That's the time when you need a chaplain. I would say mostly between twelve and so on 
 
DOCTOR: The early morning hours. 
 
PATIENT: And if you were to show a chart it would probably have a peak at about three o'clock. 
And it should be just like that. You call the buzzer, the nurse comes, "I'd like to have a chaplain," 
within five minutes the chaplain shows up and you are on the road to, ah 
 
DOCTOR: To really communicate. 
 
PATIENT: Yes. 
 
DOCTOR: This is the question you wanted me to ask, how you are satisfied with the services of the 
chaplain. I see, I asked this question perhaps indirectly when I asked you who helped you, was 
there anybody who was helpful to you. You didn't mention the chaplain at that time 
 
PATIENT: That's the trouble with the church itself. When does a man need a minister. 

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DOCTOR: Yes. 
 
PATIENT: He needs him about three o'clock ordinarily. 
 
DOCTOR: Well, Chaplain N. can answer this because he was up all night last night seeing patients. 
 
CHAPLAIN: I don't feel as guilty as I would have, I only had two hours sleep last night. I can 
appreciate this though, I think there is a lot more being said that is felt. 
 
PATIENT: And I don't think that anything else should take precedence over that. 
 
CHAPLAIN: The genuine concern of somebody reaching out for help. 
 
PATIENT: Sure, the minister, the Presbvterian minister that married my father and mother, was 
that kind of a man. It didn't hurt him at all. I met him at ninety-five, his hearing was just as good as 
ever, his seeing was just as good as ever, his handshake was like a man of twenty-five. 
 
CHAPLAIN: This again symbolizes some of the disappointments that you've experienced. 
 
DOCTOR: This is part of the seminar, to find out those things, so we may become more effective. 
 
PATIENT: That's right. And in the case of ministers I would imagine you'd have less chance of 
consultation when you needed it than you would in the case of a psychiatrist-this is a peculiar 
thing-because a minister is supposed to be nonmoneymaking, and a psychiatrist is supposed to be 
out for a 
 
minimum amount of money. So, here you have a fellow making money, he could make money in 
the daytime, at night or anytime he wants to, but yet you could make an arrangement with a 
therapist to come at night, but try and get a minister out of bed at night. 
 
CHAPLAIN: Seems like you have had some experiences with clergy. 
 
PATIENT: My own clergyman right now is very good but the trouble with it is he is settled with a 
whole flock of children. At least four. Well, when is he gonna get out? Then they tell me about how 
they, ah, have young fellows in the seminary and things like that. Not a lot of them, fact we even 
had trouble getting some for Christian Education work. But I think if they had a going church they 
wouldn't have any trouble getting the young people. 
 
CHAPLAIN: I think we've got some things to talk about that aren't part of the seminar. He and I 
will get together sometime and we'll revise the church. I'm in agreement with a part of what he says. 
 
DOCTOR: Yes, but I'm glad he brought this up here. This is an important part. How was the 
nursing service? 
 
PATIENT: Here? 
 

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DOCTOR: Yes. 
 
PATIENT: Well, practically every night that I needed a chaplain, it was because that I had to deal 
with a wrong kind of a nurse, during the daytime. There are some nurses here that are efficient but 
they rub the patient the wrong way. Fact, my roommate said, you get better twice as fast if you 
didn't have that nurse. She fights every minute, you know what I mean? You come in and you say, 
well, would you give me a little help and start on eating because I have an ulcer and liver trouble 
and this and that and the other thing. She says, well, we are very busy, it's up to you to do that. If 
you want to eat you can eat, if you don't want to, you don't have to. Then there is another nurse who 
is pretty nice and in the way she helps you, but she never smiles one bit. And for a person like me 
who ordinarily, you know, smiles and takes on the badge of goodwill, why, it seems sad to look at 
her. Every night she comes in and not a trace of a smile. 
 
(P96) 
 
DOCTOR: How is your roommate? 
 
PATIENT: Well, I haven't been able to talk to him since he started these breathing treatments, but 
otherwise I imagine he would get along pretty well because he doesn't have so many different 
ailments as I have. 
 
DOCTOR: You know originally you planned only about five or ten minutes and then you said you 
would get very, very tired. Can you still sit comfortably? 
 
PATIENT: Well, it so happens that I'm all right. DOCTOR: Do you know for how long we talked? 
One hour. 
 
PATIENT: I never would have imagined I could have lasted an hour. 
 
CHAPLAIN: We are getting very conscious of it in not wanting to tire you here. 
 
DOCTOR: Yes, I really think we should stop it now. PATIENT: I think we have talked about most 
of the things. 
 
CHAPLAIN: I'll drop by around dinnertime before I go home, to see you again. 
 
PATIENT: Ah, six o'clock? '2 
CHAPLAIN: Five thirty to six, somewhere along there. ` 
 
PATIENT: That's very good. You can help me eat because I have  a bad nurse. 
 
CHAPLAIN: Okay. DOCTOR: Thank you for coming. I appreciate it. 
 
Mr. H.'s interview is a good example of what we called the "door-opening interview." 
 
He was regarded as a grim, noncommunicating man by the hospital staff, and their prediction was 
that he would not agree to talking with us. At the beginning of the session, he warned us that he 

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