Microsoft Word Hopper Grace oral history. 1980. 102702026. final doc

 

 

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Hopper:  

And the old guy in the back corner of the lab with his baling wire and string that 

puts stuff together won’t get anywhere until they can tell people about it.  

Pantages:  

Where is the biggest problem in the application of systems? 

Hopper:  

We need more trained people, more systems designers who really know how to 

design a system. At the moment, it seems that NASA had the corner on them. And we need 

more programmers. Somebody says, “Well with all the compilers and everything, you’re not 

going to need programmers.” There is always going to be the next problem, and every time you 

finish anything, you see the problem that lay behind it. You always need people who can define 

problems, so we need the people that can look at the big picture and divide it up into the small 

pieces that can be coped with.  

Pantages:  

What about the problem of ethics in computer use? 

 Hopper:  

That’s the environment you grow up in, the learning of values. I think to a large 

extent, we abdicated the principles of leadership in the last 30 years, and we’ve got to bring it 

back again. We went overboard in the direction of managing everything. I pointed out 

particularly in the case of armed services that if you are leading a man into combat, you can’t 

manage a man into combat. 

I think the thing holds true also in business. We abandoned any concepts of the manager 

providing leadership, just management. I think we have to go back to something old-fashioned 

like leadership. A manager can’t expect people to get into work on time unless he does. There’s 

a little bit of setting an example in there.  

Pantages:  

I think young people are really hurting for leadership. 

Hopper:  

I think so, because I’ve watched them. They don’t want total freedom; they want 

freedom within defined limits. They will test the limits; even the youngest youngster, if you tell 

him he can’t do something, he’ll try you out. When they find out where the limits are they’ll go 

ahead and be free within those limits. There’s no use trying to say that. At least not in the last 30 

years. They wanted total freedom, which has brought many of them to a sad state. They needed 

some defined limits and standards. 

Women’s Liberation 

Pantages:  

Do you think that women today are finally getting the shackle of liberation off their 

shoulders – I consider liberation to be a shackle today – and starting to figure out how to get 

ahead through their own wits and accomplishments? 

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Hopper:  

I would deplore some of the influence of women’s lib in there. Some of them are 

still getting that. The sooner they get rid of that, the better off they will be. They asked me to be 

a chairman of the session, and I said, “Will I be the chairman?” They said, “Well, there’ll be the 

program committee chairperson, and I said, “No way am I going to be a person. If I get to be the 

chairman, I will be the chairman.” And I wouldn’t go. 

I’ve always been annoyed that they titter when they say, “She was the first man of the year,” 

and I always break into the speech and say, “Man’s a generic term.”  As soon as we stop 

wasting our time with a lot of silly nonsense, I came up long before those – any women’s libber.  

What you do is do a good job and you get there. Now there is one handicap on women, is that 

they want everything. They are going to have some choices, they can’t have everything. And 

women’s lib is trying to encourage them that we can have everything.  

Pantages:  

Have women gone as far as they should in the computer industry? 

Hopper:  

I think they have done quite well. In the computer industry, they are way ahead of 

any other industry. I think they will go further as time goes on, not by women’s lib, not by 

annoying everybody. But by doing a better job. 

You really can’t take six months off to have a baby to compete equally with the men who stay 

right there. That’s one thing that’s always going to be there. You have to make decisions. And I 

think we have gone amazingly far in the computer industry. We don’t hear about everybody, 

don’t hear about Betty Holberton. She did combine the two, she has two charming daughters 

and made tremendous contributions to the industry.  

Pantages:  

She’s retired now isn’t she? 

Hopper:  

Yes, I don’t think she’s ever been properly appreciated. You might do a piece on 

her some day, with all her contributions. They’ve never been fully recognized as I was. She 

wasn’t as articulate as I was and she didn’t stick her neck out as far. She made tremendous 

contributions right from C-10 code on.  

Pantages:  

It does come down to selling yourself.  

Hopper:  

You have to do that to get the money to do the things you want to do.  

Of course, the universities frown on selling. So when you get trained in a university, you are not 

trained to sell your research, which you should be, maybe. A guy will publish a paper, and never 

talk about it, never sell it.  

Pantages:  

You have been teaching for your entire career. 

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Hopper:  

Since 1931.  

Pantages:  

In computer courses you’ve taught, how have the attitudes of the people 

changed?  

Hopper:  

They’ve always been eager. The value to me is that I have to answer their 

questions, which calls to my mind something I haven’t thought of yet. It’s very good to be mixed 

with those students because they keep challenging me. If you teach a good course, the 

professor gets more out of it than the students do – because of their questions. They’ll ask you 

about the newest things. 

But there’s a pre-selection there in that people that don’t take the courses unless they are 

interested, so they are bound to challenge the professor. The same thing with the young sailors 

– they choose to go into computers. So they are bound to challenge things. 

Pantages:  

Have you done much public speaking – that is, before non-DP people? 

Hopper:  

No, only in so far that they get me before the Women in Government groups. And 

those have mostly been in government installations. But otherwise, it’s ACM, DPMA, ASM, 

Armed Forces Communications and Electronics Association, American Association of Military 

Controllers. American Management Association. It’s all been computers.  

I spoke before Rotary Clubs a couple of times. But it was computer people who wanted me to 

talk to their pals. I’ve talked to practically all of the user’s groups. Univac, the DEC users group 

DECUS, SHARE, and all the different user’s groups for the different companies. It’s all been 

computer people. I’ve talked for all of them. The only time I’ve been outside of that – and then I 

used a computer as an example of how you can move up with your job. Accent on learning. 

Accent on communications. It all carries over to any other job.  

The Family Genealogy and Afghans 

Pantages: 

What do you do in your free time? 

Hopper:  

When mother died I found she’d been working on the family genealogy, so I 

decided I’d finish it. But then I discovered that your ancestors double with each generation, and I 

didn’t go one line, I went all lines. And eventually I found myself back in the early days of this 

country reading Town Minutes to find out about people. And at that point I discovered a very 

interesting fact.  I had learned in schools that the pilgrims landed in 1620 and that in 1773 we 

had the Boston Tea Party, and I knew nothing about the 150 years in between, during which 

time we formed all town meeting assemblies, the whole structure of government. 

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And I got started reading American history. I discovered that my brother-in-law descended from 

a bunch of Magna Carta barons, and so on, and I started reading English history. You ought to 

see the books around here on early American history and English history.  

Then – on Christmas day every year after we’ve had Christmas dinner, my family tells me what 

they’d like the next year. Which means that there are several Afghan sweaters, Scandinavian 

patterned mittens, stuff like that that are on order. So I’ve had to make those. And there are 

various needlepoint things I just finished, a needlepoint rug for the bedroom for my sister’s doll’s 

house. I make things. I’m busy every minute. And then there’s all the reading on computers. 

I find American history entrancing, British history just as much fun, genealogy work I get to 

every time I get a chance to – and when I get to a town like Salt Lake City I always try to allow a 

little extra time to get to the libraries. When I get to Boston, I get to my favorite library, the New 

England Historical Genealogical Society.  

I was born and brought up in New York City, and my mother’s name was Van Horne, that’s the 

old Dutch of New York City. So I get a whole slew of Dutchmen from her father. Her mother’s 

name was Russell, and her great grandfather was Rear Admiral Alexander Wilson Russell. 

Which got me back to Pennsylvania, to the Scots of western Pennsylvania? And another branch 

comes from New Hampshire, Maine, all through New England. And after I got our family 

situated, my sister wanted me to look at her husband’s, Billy Westcott coat of arms.  They were 

among the original settlers of Rhode Island. He’s a descendant of Ann Hutchison. It’s absolutely 

fascinating. It’s more fun than a detective story. You have to guess and look, guess and look. 

So that kind of research is fun, and I always figured I could have a second career, if I needed it, 

being a genealogist. There are a lot of things to do. 

I’ve got four Afghans ready for Christmas, and several needlepoint things, and two baby 

sweaters and a baby afghan. See I can knit when I’m reading. So I’m very busy. Once in a while 

I take time off and read a detective story. Del Shannon. I used to read Agatha Christie. I never 

get to movies. I never get to television either. But lately I get to radio news, instead of television 

news. Radio gives you a lot more. Television can’t tell you the news unless they have a picture 

for it. And they leave a lot out. We have one of those nice all news radio stations in Washington.   

I do read the papers. I have to keep up with what’s going on. 

Pantages:  

It certainly has been fun talking with you. 

Hopper:  

I think all I’ve got is a lot of common sense and a willingness to work hard. Both 

of them are Scots and Dutch characteristics.  

Pantages:  

A lot of people credit you with super intelligence, manifested in your ability to 

communicate with people in English.  

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Hopper:  

Don’t forget that I grew up in a day when there was no television. You read 

books. You acquired a vocabulary, which is a very useful thing. And then I have one other thing 

which is a help. That is the same as my sister and brother – we inherited the lean tough rugged 

physical makeup of our Scots ancestors. And that is a tremendous assist. Stamina and keep 

going. I haven’t had to make any major effort to stay skinny. I just naturally never did eat very 

much. I eat what I like. I never put on a large amount of weight. The same with my sister and 

brother. That’s an inheritance from our ancestors.  We don’t catch things. 

Pantages:  

Have you ever been sick? 

Hopper:  

Well, I’ve been told that I had flu in 1918, not that I can remember most of it. I 

was only 12 years old. Never any long-term illness of any kind.  It’s the same with my brother 

and sister. Since I’ve been down here since 1967, I’ve been down only once. The flu, I was 

down about a week. Compared to most people, I’ve been very lucky. I did have a black eye. But 

I don’t count that as an illness.  

[Tape stopped and was started again as she commented about World War II…] 

Hopper:  

The whole country was just doing one thing.  

Pantages: 

 People were all convinced then.  

Hopper:  

If you go back and look at what was being fought for and what was happening in 

Germany. These days people have very little knowledge about what was happening and why 

we went in.  We had a real purpose, a real end in view. We had to stop something, and we did.  

Comments by Phil Vincent 

[This interview was on the end of the tape of the interview with Grace Hopper. The following is a 

brief conversation I had in 1980 with Phil Vincent, who was with Univac. I think he came from 

Remington and was largely involved as a manager in the customer service side. ] 

Phil Vincent:   They had this CAL, Computation Analysis Laboratory, over in Rich Avenue 

where people were really jammed in. And these were all desk workers. And the desks were 

piled in very close together with little aisles between them. And there were no individual offices. 

The second day I was there I went on a walkout in the section at lunch time. I saw two people in 

there and they were crawling around between the desks and every once in a while they’d rear 

up between the desks and each had water pistols and they were shooting at each other. And 

one of them was a guy named Harold Sweeney, who I understand died a while ago, and the 

other was Grace Hopper. You know, she was a little nuts like the rest of them. But she went in 

for this, she appreciated the light touch. But she was an extremely dedicated woman.  

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Pantages:  

She still is.  

Vincent:  

There’s a gal who would know Hopper from the woman’s side, by the name of 

named Margery League. Now Marge is long gone from Eckert and Mauchly, her husband is a 

stockbroker. She was at Mauchly’s funeral, and so she’s obviously still in the area. She was 

down there in Hopper’s day and can give you the woman’s view of Hopper. 

I can tell you a place where you can get them. One of them is Burdette Welch in Blue Bell – he’s 

preparing a history of Univac. Underwritten by Sperry. There’s another group and that’s out of 

Washington. Otto Bernath is making preparations for a 30

th

 anniversary for Univac.  

I don’t have any special anecdotes in relation to Hopper. For a woman of her brilliance she was 

surprisingly approachable. I haven’t seen her for 10 years.  I would like to see her again; I was 

genuinely fond of Hopper. I always felt that if you were assigned credit for the success of 

Univac, I would say that Mauchly was the indispensable guy. Eckert was a brilliant engineer but 

Mauchly was the guy with a vision. Now Hopper was the counterpart of Mauchly, and if you 

want to get a great view of Hopper because he knew her after the early days, talk to Neal 

Gorchow. He knew her starting in the 1950s. He would have the real grasp of the importance of 

the contribution she made, which I think was just immeasurable and it corresponds to Mauchly’s 

contribution.  

Both Mauchly and Hopper exhibited creativity. They saw the need for bringing this thing out of 

the vast wilderness of black magic and back into where it became a tool and didn’t require a 20-

year apprenticeship before you could use them. And that’s what computers have become. 

People are selling them in stores and using them at home. 

That’s because of the base people like Hopper laid for making these things understandable. 

She simplified this tool in effect or the utilization of it so the average person could use that tool. I 

think that the fact that she had the vision to start the work that she did. Automatic programming 

was her group in the sense that programming up until that point was laborious – a one thing at a 

time. What she started was to use the computer to program itself. I think she was one of the true 

contributors who made giant steps forward. Without her, they wouldn’t be selling these things 

inside the stores.  

Pantages:  

She gives a lot of credit to Betty Holberton. 

Vincent:  

Yes, but unless someone points them in the right direction they would never go 

down there, they wouldn’t see the path. Hopper was one of those, this was an area in which you 

would do some work. She was one of the innovators.  

Pantages:  

She didn’t sit there and say “My God we’re making history.”  

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Vincent: That’s what I’m calling vision. That’s what Mauchly did. Originally they had a computer, 

a number-cruncher, but it took three days to load the numbers in. And what he did was convert 

it to where the number-cruncher was incidental, put lot of stuff in and a lot of stuff out. Now 

Hopper did the same thing. She made this applicable to business.