promise of
freedom from slavery to alcohol.
- - - -
There are actually two questions here.
(1) What percentage of the people who go to two or three AA meetings end up
staying with the program, and gaining long term sobriety?
The official New York A.A. figures were assembled in a series of Triennial
Surveys, made every three years, and published by New York.
See Message 6410, which was posted up just a little over a week ago:
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/6410
You can read the article to which it refers as an Adobe Acrobat file:
http://hindsfoot.org/recout01.pdf
or as an MS Word file: http://hindsfoot.org/recout01.doc
These A.A. Triennial Membership Surveys for 1977 through 1989 show that, of
those people who are in their first month of attending A.A. meetings, 26%
will
still be attending A.A. meetings at the end of that year. And of those who
are
in their fourth month of attending A.A. meetings (i.e., those who have
completed
their initial ninety days, and have thereby demonstrated a certain
willingness
to really try the program), 56% will still be attending A.A. meetings at the
end
of that year.
According to the really old timers in my part of the U.S. -- I have asked a
large number of them this question, and they universally agree -- THE PEOPLE
WHO
GO BACK OUT AND DRINK are, 90% to 95% of the time, the people WHO QUIT
ATTENDING
MEETINGS and quit trying to work the program.
If you have severe diabetes, then the combination of insulin injections and
watching your diet will do a lot of good, but if you quit the insulin shots
and
start pigging out on chocolate cake again, you will get very ill -- not
because
modern medicine "does not work," but because you stopped following the
doctors'
recommendations.
It's time to quit blaming A.A. if people go to a few meetings, pay no
attention
to what is said, put out no effort, and then disappear and go back to
drinking
again.
If you take three or four violin lessons, refuse to practice the violin at
home,
and then quit going to your lessons, then not even the greatest violin
teacher
in the world can teach you how to play the violin successfully. Let's get
serious here!
- - - -
(2) What percentage of people who FAITHFULLY KEEP ON ATTENDING A.A. MEETINGS
and
who GENUINELY WORK THE STEPS will end up gaining long term sobriety?
As the Big Book says -- and as actual observation shows, in my own
experience --
"Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path."
Even
people who have slips -- IF they come back to the tables and start attending
meetings again and working the program again -- will eventually gain long
term
sobriety and die sober, at least 98% of the time, in my own observation over
the
years.
(Although I can remember two hard core cases from my home group, one who
took
fifteen years and a term in the state penitentiary, and the other who took
twenty years, before they started taking the program seriously. But please,
anybody who is reading this, it is NOT necessary for YOU to do it the way
they
did it!!!)
Just keep coming back, and it will work. As the good old timers put it, YOU
NEVER FAIL TILL YOU STOP TRYING.
Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
++++Message 6422. . . . . . . . . . . . Who is Mr. T in the Keys to the
Kingdom?
From: Henry Cox . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/5/2010 10:19:00 PM
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
Who is Mr. T in this story at the back of the
Big Book, "The Keys to the Kingdom"?
- - - -
From GC the moderator:
"The Keys to the Kingdom," on pp. 268 ff. in the fourth edition of the Big
Book,
is the story of Sylvia Kauffmann. She got sober on September 13, 1939.
For more about Sylvia K., see Nancy Olson's short biographies of the people
who
wrote the stories at the end of the Big Book:
http://www.a-1associates.com/westbalto/HISTORY_PAGE/Authors.htm
On page 273 Sylvia refers to "a visit from Mr. T., a recovered alcoholic."
This was Earl Treat (whose story is "He Sold Himself Short," on pp. 258
ff. in the 4th edit. of the Big Book). He was the one who founded A.A. in
Chicago.
For an interesting photograph of Earl Treat, see:
http://hindsfoot.org/mnfound1.html
(Earl is standing between Dr. Bob and Barry Collins, who worked with Ed
Webster
on printing and distributing the Little Red Book.)
There is another photograph of Earl by himself at:
http://hindsfoot.org/mnfound2.html
Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
++++Message 6423. . . . . . . . . . . . P 48 AA Pamphlet
From: john wikelius . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/5/2010 11:29:00 PM
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
AA periodically surveys its members. This pamphlet is titled:
A.A. Membership Survey
It has a lot of interesting data. Can be purchased from GSO.
John Wikelius
Enterprise, Alabama
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
++++Message 6424. . . . . . . . . . . . The long early drafts of the Big
Book manuscript
From: ginnymatthew . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/30/2010 5:11:00 PM
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
THE STORY OF THE WRITING OF THE BIG BOOK
I recently heard that one of the earliest drafts
of the Big Book was 400 or so pages long.
How many different versions of these (longer)
early drafts of the Big Book do we know about?
How many of these earlier versions still survive,
and where can copies of them be found?
Even if copies of some of these drafts no longer
exist, can we know anything about what they might
have contained?
Who cut them down and shortened them? Bill W.,
or someone else?
There is a big difference between 400 or more
pages, and the present 164 pages.
Ginny M.
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
++++Message 6425. . . . . . . . . . . . An addiction even worse stigmatized
than alcoholism
From: Mike . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/31/2010 7:42:00 PM
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
In the 12 & 12, in the chapter on the 3rd Tradition
(pp. 141-142) a potential new member confides to
the group that he was "the victim of another
addiction even worse stigmatized than alcoholism."
He's finally allowed to join. Does anyone know
what that stigma was??
Thanks, Mike
- - - -
From GC the moderator: This question gets asked periodically, so it's
probably
not a bad idea to re-post the answer.
See AAHistoryLovers Message 1973, from Arthur Sheehan:
"WORSE STIGMATIZED":
In the year 1937: On the AA calendar of "year two" the spirit of Tradition 3
emerged. A member asked to be admitted who frankly described himself to the
"oldest" member as "the victim of another addiction even worse stigmatized
than
alcoholism." The "addiction" was "sex deviate."** Guidance came from Dr Bob
(the
oldest member in Akron, OH) asking, "What would the Master do?" The member
was
admitted and plunged into 12th Step work. (DBGO 240-241 12&12 141-142) Note:
this story is often erroneously intermingled with an incident that occurred
8
years later in 1945 at the 41st St clubhouse in NYC. (PIO 318).
**Information on this revelation was provided by David S from an audiotape
of
Bill W at an open meeting of the 1968 General Service Conference. See also
the
pamphlet The Co-founders of Alcoholics Anonymous. (Publication number P-53,
pg
30).
THE BLONDE TRANSVESTITE (a totally different person):
In the year 1945: Bill W was called by Barry L (who would later author
Living
Sober) from the 41st St clubhouse. Bill persuaded the group to take in a
black
man who was an ex-convict with bleach-blond hair, wearing women's clothing
and
makeup. The man also admitted to being a "dope fiend." When asked what to do
about it, Bill posed the question, "did you say he was a drunk?" When
answered,
"yes" Bill replied, "well I think that's all we can ask." The man was
reported
to have disappeared shortly after. (BW-FH 8, PIO 317-318) Anecdotal accounts
erroneously say that this individual went on to become one of the best 12th
Steppers in NY. This story is often erroneously intermingled with that of a
1937
incident ("year two" on the AA calendar) involving an Akron member that is
discussed in the Tradition Three essay in the 12&12 (pgs 141-142).
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
++++Message 6426. . . . . . . . . . . . The long early drafts of the Big
Book manuscript
From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/6/2010 1:02:00 AM
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
THE STORY OF THE WRITING OF THE BIG BOOK
Ginny and all,
An excerpt from the original "Bill's Story" can be downloaded at
http://www.4dgroups.org/ -- click "Downloads," then "Documents," and scroll
down
to "Bill's Original Story." This is 36 pages:
http://www.4dgroups.org/index.php?option=com_remository&Itemid=26&func=start
down\
&id=8 [11]
Interestingly, "Bill's Story" was titled Chapter 2 at that time, while
"There Is
a Solution" was tagged as Chapter 1. From my information, these two chapters
were started in the Spring of 1938, and the next thing written -- "The
Doctors
Opinion" -- was produced in July of that year.
However, I cannot remember exactly from what source I learned this
information.
I can send interested parties a PDF file of this writing.
Bob S.
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
++++Message 6427. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr. Bob on Anonymity
From: Karen Reynolds . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/6/2010 1:12:00 AM
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
Doctor Bob and the Good Oldtimers talks about this on pages 264 and 265. It
indicates that D.S. of San Mateo, California quoted Dr. Bob in a February
1969
Grapevine article.
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
++++Message 6428. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr. Bob on Anonymity
From: M.J. Johnson . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/6/2010 7:06:00 AM
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
According to the Grapevine Digital Archive http://www.aagrapevine.org/da/
the
title of the article is "Dr. Bob on Tradition Eleven" (Vol. 25 No. 9).
It doesn't contain anything more of a quote other than what was included in
the
original question here.
- - - -
On Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 1:12 AM, Karen Reynolds
wrote:
>
> Doctor Bob and the Good Oldtimers talks about this on pages 264 and 265.
It
> indicates that D.S. of San Mateo, California quoted Dr. Bob in a February
> 1969 Grapevine article.
>
>
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
++++Message 6429. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Modern A.A. success rate
From: allan_gengler . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/6/2010 9:43:00 AM
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
From Allan Gengler, John Moore, and Baileygc23
- - - -
From: "allan_gengler" (agengler at wk.net)
AA does do a survey periodically and you can find the latest here:
http://www.aa.org/catalog.cfm?origpage=75&product=65
http://www.aa.org/pdf/products/p-48_07survey.pdf
- - - -
ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS 2007 MEMBERSHIP SURVEY
(conference approved literature)
LENGTH OF SOBRIETY
33% sober more than 10 years
12% sober between 5-10 years
24% sober between 1-5 years
31% sober less than 1 year
MEETING ATTENDANCE
Members attend an average of 2.4 meetings per week
AGES OF MEMBERS
2.3% under age 21
11.3% age 21 through 30
16.5% age 31 through 40
28.5% age 41 through 50
23.8% age 51 through 60
12.3% age 31 through 70
5.3% over 70
HOW MEMBERS WERE FIRST INTRODUCED TO A.A.
(two reponses were permitted)
33% through an A.A. member
33% treatment facility
31% self-motivated
24% family
11% court order
8% counseling agency
7% health professional
4% employer or fellow worker
3% non-A.A. friend or neighbor
3% correctional facility
2% Al-Anon or Alateen member
2% A.A. literature
1% newspaper/magazine/radio/TV
1% member of clergy
1% internet
7% other
- - - -
From: John Moore (contact.johnmoore at
gmail.com)
First editions of BB (except the first printings) had a chapter near the
indexes
entitled "Now We Are Thousands." This chapter was dropped, I believe, when
the
second edition was introduced. It states:
"It had been satisfactorily demonstrated that at least two out of three
alcoholics who wished to get well could apparently do so, notwithstanding
the
fact that their chance of recovery upon any other medical or spiritual basis
had
been almost nil -- a small percentage at best."
View online at http://www.silkworth.net/bbstories/391.html
GB
John M.
South Burlington VT 05403
- - - -
From: Baileygc23@aol.com (Baileygc23 at aol.com)
I am seventy nine, and I have seen a lot of people disappear from AA. I have
gone to funerals for those who died by using again. I just keep going, and
try
to stay sober somehow.
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
++++Message 6430. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Modern AA success rate
From: BILL MCINTIRE . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/6/2010 12:29:00 PM
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
From Bill McIntire, James Scarpine, and Glenn Chesnut
ON THE IMPORTANCE (OR UNIMPORTANCE) OF ATTENDING
A.A. MEETINGS IN EARLY ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS
- - - -
MEETINGS ALONE WON'T DO IT
From: Bill McIntire
(maxbott at yahoo.com)
I agree!! I have seen NO info that supports those people's statement that
"only
2 or 3% of the people that come to A.A. stay sober." Along with good info
there
is a lot of bogus stuff as well. I am sure you are already aware of this.
I have met countless people who went to countless meetings and never gained
much
continuous clean time and many of those who did manage to stay dry were just
that: dry.
5 yrs to 35 yrs.
However, I have met only a very small handful of people over the last 23 yrs
who
had truthfully gone thru the steps, that went back out, and I have yet to
meet
ANYBODY who is current with themselves and has a current experience with the
steps who has gone back out -- ever!!!
Which proves to me a couple of things: (1) meetings alone cannot keep me
sober.
If that were so then "B" at the end of How it Works ("that probably no human
power could have relieved our alcoholism") would be a lie!
And (2) I am still here despite myself, NOT because of myself. Not because
of
how many meetings I go to, how popular I am, not how many men I am
sponsoring,
not how well I know or think I know the Book, and certainly not by how well
I
can spew a lot of "AA" stuff!
While I do believe in the supportive power in meetings, there is NOTHING in
my
experience that supports the message I have heard over the last 15 to 20
yrs,
that meetings keep you sober! And to my knowledge, nowhere in our literature
does it say that.
However, living by these principles, no matter how many meetings I may go to
or
not make it to, is still a foolproof way to stay sober!
Enuf of my preaching!!! Bill
- - - -
THE ONLY MENTION OF MEETINGS is on pages 159-160 in the Big Book, which says
ONLY ONE MEETING A WEEK IS NECESSARY
From: "planternva2000"
(james.scarpine at verizon.net)
Please tell me I misunderstood your post:
As the Big Book says -- and as actual observation shows, in my own
experience --
"Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path."
Even
people who have slips -- IF they come back to the tables and start attending
meetings again and working the program again -- will eventually gain long
term
sobriety and die sober, at least 98% of the time, in my own observation over
the
years.
While my own exposure to the first edition Big Book has bee entirely on
line,
and I no longer have my copies of the second edition, I still have my third
and
fourth. For the life of me I can find no sentence stating "Here are the
steps we
took and the meetings we attended, which are suggested as a program of
recovery."
The only mention of meetings I can find is on page 159: "In addition to
these
casual get-togethers (note the word 'casual'), it became customary to set
apart
one night a week for a meeting to be attended by anyone or everyone
interested
in a spiritual way of life. Aside from fellowship and sociability, the prime
object was to provide a time and place where new people (note 'new people')
might bring their problems.
Today there several hundred AA members, Loners, Homers and Internationalists,
registered with GSO who do not have access to meetings. At different times
in my
own early sobriety I was a Loner and later an Internationalist, with
meetings
few and far between.
The gentleman whose story is on page 310 of "Experience, Strength & Hope"
was
sober three years and three months without ever having attended a single
meeting.
Jim S.
- - - -
WHAT THE BIG BOOK ACTUALLY SAYS ABOUT MEETINGS
on pp. 159-160
From Glenn Chesnut
(glennccc at sbcglobal.net)
"A year and six months later these three had succeeded with seven more.
Seeing
much of each other, scarce an evening passed that someone's home did not
shelter
a little gathering of men and women, happy in their release, and constantly
thinking how they might present their discovery to some newcomer. In
addition
to these casual get-togethers, it became customary to set apart one night a
week
for a meeting to be attended by anyone or everyone interested in a spiritual
way
of life. Aside from fellowship and sociability, the prime object was to
provide
a time and place where new people might bring their problems."
"Outsiders became interested. One man and his wife placed their large home
at
the disposal of this strangely assorted crowd. This couple has since become
so
fascinated that they have dedicated their home to the word. Many a
distracted
wife has visited this house to find loving and understanding companionship
among
women who knew her problem, to hear from the lips of their husbands what had
happened to them, to be advised how her own wayward mate might be
hospitalized
and approached when next he stumbled."
It's talking about early Akron AA. Read Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers to
see
more details about what this paragraph was actually describing. Also read
the
whole first paragraph, including "scarce an evening passed that someone's
home
did not shelter a little gathering of men and women."
Most of the early Akron people showed up at Dr. Bob and Anne's house EVERY
DAY
-- either in the morning, when they sat around while Anne read from the
Upper
Room (or sometimes a relevant Bible verse) and then discussed the topic
raised
in that meditational reading -- or in the evening, when they likewise sat
around
and discussed how the program was working in their lives, and the spiritual
problems that they were having to deal with in their life in the world.
One way or another, they stayed in constant daily contact with other A.A.
people.
The "one meeting a week" was the Oxford Group style meeting at the home of
T.
Henry and Clarace Williams. This couple were not alcoholics themselves, and
spouses also came to this meeting.
So what the Big Book was describing on pp. 159-160 -- early Akron A.A. --
actually consisted of SEVEN MEETINGS A WEEK:
(1) ONE BIG MEETING A WEEK, which was what we would today call an "open
meeting," with non-alcoholics also present, at T. Henry and Clarace
Williams'
house.
(2) A SMALLER MEETING on each of the other six days of the week, held either
in
the morning before work, or in the evening, at Dr. Bob and Anne's house.
This
kind of meeting was what we would today call a "discussion meeting" or a
"topic
meeting."
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
++++Message 6431. . . . . . . . . . . . Mel B. and Tom D. 60 years sobriety
dinner!
From: handlebarick . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/6/2010 8:59:00 AM
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
Mel B. (Toledo, Ohio) and Tom D. (Lima, Ohio)
will be present to answer questions on
Sunday, May 2, 2010 at the
"Gratitude for our Sobriety" dinner
in Wapakoneta, Ohio
Both men obtained the gift of sobriety in
April 1950, and have 60 years of sobriety each.
This event will be held at the First English Lutheran Church, on 107 W.
Mechanic
St. in Wapakoneta, Ohio.
Wapakoneta is located in western Ohio, about 25 miles from the Indiana
border,
just off Interstate 75 halfway between Toledo and Dayton, where the
interstate
crosses U.S. Highway 33.
Fellowship begins at 2:00 pm
Covered dish dinner at 3:00 pm
Ask-It-Basket session with Mel B. and Tom D. at 4:00 pm
Dostları ilə paylaş: |