Aa history Lovers 2010 moderators Nancy Olson and Glenn F. Chesnut page
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John M South Burlington, Vermont, US IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6447. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Upper Room From: aalogsdon@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/10/2010 5:55:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have a book entitled THE STORY OF THE UPPER ROOM, A 30TH anniversary March-April 1935-1965 with photographs of copies and personnel. (aalogsdon at aol.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6448. . . . . . . . . . . . re: early issues Upper Room From: Charlie C . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/10/2010 10:04:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Only a handful of libraries seem to have the periods you are looking for, none
in electronic form. These would be Lexington Theological Seminary in Kentucky, Drew University in New Jersey (the main Methodist archives), Lutheran Theological Seminary in Gettysburg, Univ of Texas Austin, and Southern Methodist University. I found this info thru the "pay" version of WorldCat, which you might be able to
access at a local college library. The "free" version, WorldCat.org, doesn't give quite the same detail re dates, volumes ... You could also try contacting the Upper Room, http://upperroom.org , it isn't clear to me from their site what they may have, but presumably they have a library of past issues.
IM = route20guy - - - - From the moderator: see Message 6443 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/6443 From: glennccc@sbcglobal.net (glennccc at sbcglobal.net) Yes, the Upper Room headquarters in Nashville, Tennessee has copies of all of the issues, from the beginning, in their archives.
several years ago, to see if they would be willing to publish a volume with a whole year's worth of copies from somewhere in the 1935 to 1939 period. But this was not something that they wanted to get involved in. I don't know how difficult it would be to get a look at the materials in their archives. The Upper Room is not a library, which usually means that it is much more difficult for a researcher to gain access to their files.
the 1935 to 1939 period on e-bay. I have a few copies myself.
from the 1930's, see: http://hindsfoot.org/uprm1.html Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6449. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Regarding longest sobriety in A.A.
From: Donna Whitehurst . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/11/2010 5:17:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Donna Whitehurst, Cindy Miller, Tom White, Corey Franks, Bernard Wood, and
Glenn Chesnut - - - - From: Donna Whitehurst (justme489 at yahoo.com) Wow, on the website listed below there is a man listed: Barry C., April 14, 1941 Does anyone know if he is still around and if he goes to meeting? That would be awesome! This year will be my first international convention; are there generally oltimers there with more than 50 years? If so, I sure want to meet and talk with them if they are not totally surrounded all the time (smile). Thank you for everything you do on here!! Donna W. - - - - From: Cindy Miller (cm53 at earthlink.net) Here in Philadelphia, the 4021 Clubhouse hosted an AA meeting in memory of Ed B.
a longtime member (1/15/51) who recently passed away with 59 years of sobriety. He was one of the founders of the Parkside Group -- then known as the Parkside
Interracial Group -- formed in part because white AA's believed that black AA's
should meet in their own groups. - - - - From: Tom White (tomwhite at cableone.net) Was interested in this list because at least in theory I could be on it. My sober date is Oct. 17, 1959, which, coded, would be 591017. I'm a little uncertain if all this concern with length of sobriety is at all in the spirit of the Program. One day at a time and all that. . . . Tom W
(erb2b at yahoo.com) HI... I had a call about two weeks ago from someone in Florida telling me that
and asking me at the same time this question. Is there anyone longer than our
lady whose here and in New York sometimes who has more than 65 years sober and
has been to all the Internationals as she has that you know of ? If not, it's
Ruthie O. - - - - From: Bernard Wood (bern-donna at earthlink.net) Carl D. got sober in Dec 1947 in Muskegon, Michigan (his story was posted here).
He was just admitted to the Bay Pines Veterans Administration hospital in St Petersburg, Florida. - - - - From the moderator: (glennccc at sbcglobal.net) Folks are responding here to Message #6444 from Walt N. http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/6444 which points us to the Sobriety Anniversaries website which lists sobriety anniversaries worldwide. http://www.aahistory.com/newbirth.html Do we have any way in fact of knowing which of the early people on this list are
still living? Such as Cynthia C. who got sober on March 13, 1940 or Mary R. who
got sober on June 10, 1944? 400313 Cynthia C 400511 Terry M 400815 Duke P 410414 Barry C 410417 Al M 410417 Tex A 411111 Clancy U 421010 Ed W 440610 Mary R 450111 Jack T 450613 Rosa B 450800 Cliff W 450929 Lib S 460106 Stan W 461111 Jack T 470630 Clinton F 470806 Larry S 471104 Steve H 480104 Frank B 480127 Wendy (from Iowa) 480401 Ann C 480614 David P 491231 Vernon L 500228 Leroy B 501117 Joe L 520318 John B 520909 Louise A 520918 William S 521115 Bev S 521225 Bob T 530101 Joseph J 530713 Howard A 530815 Jeff M 531105 Silva C 540419 Jack 540606 Cheeky Charley H 540828 Bill B 550427 Lee E 550715 Neill P5 551022 Jack B 560601 Bill C 560802 Millie W 560817 Richard S 560913 Isabelle Mac T 561229 Pinky H 570214 CJB 570219 Walt T 570330 John O 570404 John G 570424 Jack B 570502 Grace H 571117 Raymond M 571213 Leo R 570821 Jack C 580226 Henry R 580306 Jack H 580824 Frank H 580930 Dave H 581031 Diana H 590111 George S 590207 Ruth H 590407 Len L 590423 Lee L 590704 Rusty W 590919 George L 591217 Donald H 591224 Mike A 600104 Peter N 600205 Paul P 600214 Laurie P 600406 Jeff J 600504 Peter D 600508 Marti P 600717 John B 600725 Tom A 600923 Peter E 601002 Billie S 601027 Al C 601111 Hal K 601125 Keith M 601231 Reuben W 610104 Al W 610214 Tommie D 610306 Rosie (Al-anon) R 610401 Cactus Pete P 610515 Dorothy E 610616 Eddie W 610927 Al M IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6450. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Regarding longest sobriety in A.A.
From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/12/2010 11:56:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII One problem with the list for determining the longest sober living person in AA is that, so far as I can tell, none of those listed at the top of the list are living.
Minneapolis and Ed wrote the Little Red Book) are dead for many years (Ed d. 1971?).
Clancy U. of Hawaii likewise (Dick B could give you a date), Tex A. likewise (I think he died fairly recently, if I have the right "Tex"). I can't place Cynthia C. and should be able to if she got sober in March 1940.
(Jan 6 1946) and Jack T. (Nov 11 1946) I don't find Clyde B. (Jun 20 1946) whom I know and who is alive. Nor do I find, at the place where he ought to be, Chet H (Apr 4 1949) whom I know and who is alive. Nor do I find Mel B. (Apr 15 1950) whom many of us know and who is certainly alive -- in fact he's speaking in Wapokoneta soon. Nor do I find Clancy I. (Oct 31 [I think] 1958) whom most of AA knows and who is
certainly alive. I think it might repay inquiry to check out all those on the list with dates before the longest-sober living person we have found, but I'm not entirely hopeful we'll come up with someone.
solitary? From: nuevenueve@ymail.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/13/2010 7:05:00 PM
AAs?
______________________________________
little
town miners, islanders, nomadic workers, disabled people, etc). Thank you. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6452. . . . . . . . . . . . egomaniac with inferiority complex From: steven.calderbank@verizon.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/11/2010 9:34:00 PM
From: pamelafro88 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/14/2010 3:01:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Can anyone tell me whereabouts the phrase about "if A.A. is ever destroyed, it will be destroyed from within" (or something similar) can be found? Pam F. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6454. . . . . . . . . . . . Big Book foreword to 4th ed: how are members defined? From: martinholmes76@ymail.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/14/2010 3:50:00 AM
page
xxiii, it says that "worldwide membership of A.A." has now grown to "an estimated two million or more, with nearly 100,800 groups meeting in approximately 150 countries around the world."
From: Dougbert . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/11/2010 4:50:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII What was the name of the person who established the initial contact between AA and the Buddhist world? Where exactly in Thailand did it occur? Do we have any more details beyond the brief reference in As Bill Sees It? Do you have any historical data on Dwight Goddard? Could he have been the initial contact between A.A. and the Buddhist world? Did Bill W. or Dr. Bob ever meet with Goddard and discuss Buddhism?
Thailand wrote (Goddard was a minister in China and Japan), "We took A.A.s Twelve Steps to the largest Buddhist monastery in this province, and the head
priest (we don't have priests in Buddhism) said, 'Why, these steps are fine! For
us as Buddhists, it might be slightly more acceptable if you had inserted the
word 'good' in your Steps instead of 'God.' Nevertheless, you say that it is God
as you understand Him, and that must certainly include the good. Yes, A.A.'s Twelve Steps will surely be accepted by the Buddhists around here.'" A former member of A.A. was Jack Kerouac the poet. He used Goddard's A Buddhist
Bible as his primary text, as he promoted Zen Buddhism and A.A. as being complimentary. He died of alcoholism in 1969 at the age of 47. One American who made his own attempt to establish an American Buddhist movement
was Dwight Goddard (1861-1939). Goddard had been a Christian missionary to China, when he first came in contact with Buddhism. In 1928, he spent a year living at a Zen monastery in Japan. In 1934, he founded "The Followers of Buddha, an American Brotherhood", with the goal of applying the traditional monastic structure of Buddhism more strictly than Senzaki and Sokei-an. The group was largely unsuccessful: no Americans were recruited to join as monks and attempts failed to attract a Chinese Chan (Zen) master to come to the United States. However, Goddard's efforts as an author and publisher bore considerable fruit. In 1930, he began publishing ZEN: A Buddhist Magazine. In 1932, he collaborated with D. T. Suzuki (see below), on a translation of the Lankavatara Sutra. That same year, he published the first edition of A Buddhist Bible, an anthology of Buddhist scriptures focusing on those used in Chinese and Japanese Zen, which was enormously influential.[3] The timing of Goddard's efforts and Bill W's efforts were very similar. Can you
verify any connections? Thanks, Doug IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6456. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Literature reference From: Jay Pees . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/14/2010 4:59:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII At the 1986 General Service Conference, Bob P. gave what the 1986 Final Report
called "a powerful and inspiring closing talk" titled "Our greatest danger: rigidity." He said: "If you were to ask me what is the greatest danger facing A.A. today, I would have to answer the growing rigidity - the increasing demand for absolute answers to nit-picking questions; pressure for G.S.O. to 'enforce' our Traditions, screening alcoholics at closed meetings, prohibiting non-Conference approved literature, i.e., 'banning books,' laying more and more rules on groups and members. And in this trend toward rigidity, we are drifting farther and farther away from our co-founders. Bill, in particular, must be spinning in his grave, for he was perhaps the most permissive person I ever met. One of his favorite sayings was 'Every group has the right to be wrong.'" The above comes from http://www.silkworth.net/aabiography/bobp.html I believe if someone can find his entire speech, it will have the material asked about in it. I know I have seen it in conjunction with this speech but can't seem to locate it. - - - - From G.C. the Moderator. http://hindsfoot.org/pearson.html gives the part of Bob
P.'s speech which was published in the 1986 General Service Conference's final
report: "The Thirty-Sixth Annual Meeting of the General Service Conference of Alcoholics Anonymous 1986 (Roosevelt Hotel, New York City, April 20-26, 1986), Final Report." - - - - On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 3:01 AM, pamelafro88 wrote: > Can anyone tell me whereabouts the phrase about "if A.A. is ever destroyed, > it will be destroyed from within" (or something similar) can be found? > > Pam F. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6457. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: Times and places of AA Meetings in April 1939 From: John Barton . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/13/2010 4:01:00 PM
the
Weds meeting. The first meeting in Cleveland was May 11. 1939. This has been well documented in both DBGO and How it Worked. When Bill said (not an exact quote) by 1937 this thing had jumped over to Cleveland he didn't mean they were having meetings or an AA group (as we know it to be now) in Cleveland but that there was a group of "Clevelanders" who had gotten sober. John B --- On Thu, 4/8/10, allan_gengler Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Times and places of AA Meetings in April 1939 > The Forward to the Second Editions says there were > THREE groups. > > From the FORWARD: "A second small group promptly took > shape at New York, to be followed in 1937 with the start of > a third at Cleveland. Besides these, there were scattered > alcoholics who had picked up the basic ideas in Akron or New > York who were trying to form groups in other cities. By late > 1937, the number of members having substantial sobriety time > behind them was sufficient to convince the membership that a > new light had entered the dark world of the > alcoholic." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6458. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA # 28 Gene E in NYC From: truthfromgood12 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/12/2010 12:12:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Folks, help me to understand the headcount discrepancy below. If Gene E. was #28, was
he #28 for New York? His statement below sort of implies to me that the thought
he was #28 in Alcoholics Anonymous. My understanding is that there were still
only 2 groups in 1939, a NY gathering and the Akron gathering. Regardless of how
many groups, the BB states there were 'about 100' sober when it was first published, but as I recall, there is a footnote somewhere saying it was closer to 80 but Bill W. rounded it up for convenience or some such thing at publication time. So if Gene E. was #28 does that mean for New York group? And does that therefore mean that if one got sober, then slipped, he lost his '# assignment'? Probably
not, but it is odd claim to make. Point being, the implication here to me is that of the majority of people sober, somewhere between 52 -72 additional (to add up to 80-100 in USA) would have had to have been in Akron. If Gene E. meant he was #28 in all of AA society in 1939, then the 80-100 count
is nowhere near accurate as reported in Big Book. Since Gene E. says there 'were less than 10 of us around New York' in 1939, that would lead me to believe that Gene was #28 of anyone who had ever gotten sober via AA in NY. I further would conclude that Bill W. DID count anyone who got sober for some period of time even if they relapsed, disappeared later. How else could there be less than 10 in fellowship in NY yet he is #28? Regards to all, Keith R. --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "jomo" wrote:
> > Gene Edmiston was a member of my home group in 1970's in Southern California. > Gene was among our longest sober members on the W Coast of USA at the time. His
> story is quite revealing as he first came to AA in NYC just three months after
> the 1st printing of the Big Book in 1939. Gene was 12 stepped by a friend, Paul
> Stanley and went to Oxford Group with Bill W, Hank P, Fitz M and the rest of the > NYC bunch. "I reached AA in July 4th weekend of 1939. I was the 28th AA > member, according to Bill Wilson, in AA." (!!) > > In his story, Gene talks about the first NY meetings: > "When I reached AA, there were only 3 people in New York including Bill > Wilson, that had better than two years' sobriety. Bill had four, Parkhurst > had three, and Fitzie Mayo had two. There were less than ten of us around New
> York. So our meetings for nearly a year, weren't meetings. It was just > gatherings, we'd get together, Bill would lead, and we'd talk back and forth > to Bill. > > "I'll tell you how they got away from the Oxford Group, if you don't mind. > See, for the first four years, it was religion, strictly. well, it happened a > few of them were attending the Oxford Group in New York, including Bill, because
> they weren't affiliated with a church. But some of the other boys were going
> to Protestant Churches, the Catholic Church, and others, two or three of them.
> > "I went to the Oxford Group with those boys; wouldn't be over two or three of > us at a time. The ladies, wives, would go in and sit down; out the men would > come, smoke cigarettes, talk about baseball, everything. > > But they weren't stressing their experience of drinking (at the OG meetings). > They weren't getting religion there, it was spiritual. They were studying the > Lord's Prayer, and "Sermon on the Mount" by Emmett Fox. We used "Sermon > on the Mount" for a couple of years after we got our Big Book. That's where
> they got the idea for the formation of our Program. > > "And the reason they didn't bring Christ into the Program is, they wanted it > to be spiritual. Practically all religions practice the principles that we are > practicing in AA. But we don't say "Christ" in it. They wanted everyone > who came in here, not be offended from a religious standpoint. Now if a person
> of the Jewish faith would come in, and hear Jesus Christ discussed, he > wouldn't feel comfortable, don't you see? And they got that idea out of > 'Sermon on the Mount'." > > Bill W promised Gene that when the BB was reprinted, Gene's story "The Booze > Fighter" would be included. But after a year, Gene got drunk and by the time he
was > a wonderful, gentle giant of a man, an elder statesman in the finest sense. I > knew him for about 8 years in my home group until I moved away in 1979, and Gene
> passed away a few years after that, he died sober and surrounded by AA friends.
> His full story can be read at... > http://www.silkworth.net/aahistory/genee_aa38.html > > Gene's signature and that of his sponsor Paul Stanley, appear in the first AA > Big Book ever sold at a meeting. This book was purchased at Bill and Lois' > home at a meeting in 1939 by Virginia McLeod and is now in AA Archives. > > The many signatures collected by Virginia in this book include early members > including Bill and Bob and Ebby, and some surprises like Jack Alexander. This > collection of signatures is fodder for its' own discussion thread. See it at > http://www.barefootsworld.net/aa-nellwing.html Nell Wing's story, and scroll > to a download link for a Word document. > > John M
> South Burlington, Vermont, US >
++++Message 6459. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: When Love Is Not Enough, premier Irvington NY, April 25 From: Soberholic . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/15/2010 12:13:00 PM
too.
Scandinavian and other European languages, too. This was not the case with "My Name Is Bill W." - the dvd was available with Spanish and French subtitles only. Makes me sad because of the significance of the Fellowship for so many of us in Europe, too. There was an initiative to get all the paper work concerning rights done in publishing a dvd with Scandinavian subtitles in the case of "My
Name Is Bill W." but it led nowhere. So far, at least. Keep the good thing going on! IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6460. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA # 28 Gene E in NYC From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/15/2010 2:42:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII For what it's worth............ Gene was the 23rd member of the New Jesrey Group of AA. He is correctly listed
as having 6 months of sobriety as of 1/1/1940. His sponsor was Paul Kellogg of Roselle, NJ. Paul and Gussie Kellogg are mentioned frequently in Gene's story as well as in Lois Wilson's diary in 1939. At that time, July of 1939, when Gene sobered up there were approximately 48 East Coast (NY, NJ, CT, MA & MD) members who had achieved or were struggling to maintain sobriety. This number (and the First One Hundred) does not include many well know NY pioneers who were not suceeding at that time such as Wes W, Oscar V, Freddie B, Russ R, Ebby T and more. At the time the big book was published on April 1, 1939 there actually were 100
men and women who had recovered or were struggling to stay "recovered." This includes 31 verifiable names from the Eastern Cities. I have been working for some time on documenting, to the extent possible, the names and sober dates of these men and women (The First One Hundred)and the details of their arrival in AA/OG. When complete, I will release this list as part of a larger effort. For whatever reason, back in the pioneeing days, the Akronites counted up their
members seperately from NY and vice a versa. The likely reason being is that there were literally two seperate fellowships (Oxford Group in Akron and the Group of Nameless Drunks in NY) until they were finally, more or less, united as one fellowship after the publication of the Big Book and the beginning of meetings called "Alcoholics Anonymous" in May of 1939 (i.e Cleveland May 11, 1939 at the home of Abby Goldrich)
or cast dispersion on but would point them out. He talks of attending OG meetings in NY with Bill, Hank & Fitz. It has been well documented that NY split from the OG in August of 37....perhaps Gene is thinking of the meetings they went to at Steinway Hall in the summer and fall of 39 when Emmett Fox spoke? He says Bill told him he was AA # 28...I don't doubt this at all but Bill frequently spoke off the cuff and was bad with numbers in general especially dates of sobriety, dates when things occurred etc. In researching the pioneers
and their sobriety dates there is often no rhyme or reasons as to who got numbered and when, whether a slip did or did not reset the sober date, whether names and "place of order" was dropped if members left, and I have given up trying to decipher "the numbering systems" the boys and girls used. (It really
doesn't matter a whole lot anyway) He talks of no more than 10 members around NY at the time....I don't doubt that
at a typical NY meeting in the summer of 1939 when the "Manhattan Group" was bouncing around from place to place there would only be 10 drunks not counting wives. (See"The Road from the Table on Clinton Street": Bill Wilson's Talk to the Manhattan Group, NYC, 1955)The New Jesey Group would have had a similar number doing meetings in Montclair, South Orange and Green Pond during the Summer and Fall of 1939. Gene's story is a great look back at what the NY fellowship was like the summer
of 39. I especially enjoyed reading about Gene's take on the difference between
AA spirituality and the more "specific religious" teaching of the OG...."principles before personalities" was the result. My thanks to John M for recording it and posting it on Silkworth.net where I had stumbled across it last year. I immediately knew that this "gem" was Gene Edmiston from the New Jersey Group of AA. When I finish my reasearch on the First Forty, The First One Hundred and "The
Golden Road of Devotion" it will be released in one form or another for all to see and use as they see fit. God Bless Another Layman on The Golden Road of Devotion --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "truthfromgood12" wrote:
> > Folks,
> > help me to understand the headcount discrepancy below. If Gene E. was #28, was he #28 for New York? His statement below sort of implies to me that the thought he was #28 in Alcoholics Anonymous. My understanding is that there were still only 2 groups in 1939, a NY gathering and the Akron gathering. Regardless of how many groups, the BB states there were 'about 100' sober when it was first published, but as I recall, there is a footnote somewhere saying it was closer
to 80 but Bill W. rounded it up for convenience or some such thing at publication time. > > So if Gene E. was #28 does that mean for New York group? And does that therefore mean that if one got sober, then slipped, he lost his '# assignment'? Probably not, but it is odd claim to make. Point being, the implication here to me is that of the majority of people sober, somewhere between 52 -72 additional (to add up to 80-100 in USA) would have had to have been in Akron.
> > If Gene E. meant he was #28 in all of AA society in 1939, then the 80-100 count is nowhere near accurate as reported in Big Book. Since Gene E. says there 'were less than 10 of us around New York' in 1939, that would lead me to believe that Gene was #28 of anyone who had ever gotten sober via AA in NY. I further would conclude that Bill W. DID count anyone who got sober for some period of time even if they relapsed, disappeared later. How else could there be
less than 10 in fellowship in NY yet he is #28? > > Regards to all, > > Keith R. > >
> > > > Gene Edmiston was a member of my home group in 1970's in Southern California. > > Gene was among our longest sober members on the W Coast of USA at the time. His
> > story is quite revealing as he first came to AA in NYC just three months after
> > the 1st printing of the Big Book in 1939. Gene was 12 stepped by a friend,
Paul > > Stanley and went to Oxford Group with Bill W, Hank P, Fitz M and the rest of the
> > NYC bunch. "I reached AA in July 4th weekend of 1939. I was the 28th AA > > member, according to Bill Wilson, in AA." (!!) > > > > In his story, Gene talks about the first NY meetings: > > "When I reached AA, there were only 3 people in New York including Bill > > Wilson, that had better than two years' sobriety. Bill had four, Parkhurst > > had three, and Fitzie Mayo had two. There were less than ten of us around New
> > York. So our meetings for nearly a year, weren't meetings. It was just > > gatherings, we'd get together, Bill would lead, and we'd talk back and forth > > to Bill. > > > > "I'll tell you how they got away from the Oxford Group, if you don't mind. > > See, for the first four years, it was religion, strictly. well, it happened a > > few of them were attending the Oxford Group in New York, including Bill, because > > they weren't affiliated with a church. But some of the other boys were going > > to Protestant Churches, the Catholic Church, and others, two or three of them. > >
> > "I went to the Oxford Group with those boys; wouldn't be over two or three
of > > us at a time. The ladies, wives, would go in and sit down; out the men would > > come, smoke cigarettes, talk about baseball, everything. > > > > But they weren't stressing their experience of drinking (at the OG meetings). > > They weren't getting religion there, it was spiritual. They were studying the
> > Lord's Prayer, and "Sermon on the Mount" by Emmett Fox. We used "Sermon > > on the Mount" for a couple of years after we got our Big Book. That's where > > they got the idea for the formation of our Program. > > > > "And the reason they didn't bring Christ into the Program is, they wanted it > > to be spiritual. Practically all religions practice the principles that we are
> > practicing in AA. But we don't say "Christ" in it. They wanted everyone > > who came in here, not be offended from a religious standpoint. Now if a person > > of the Jewish faith would come in, and hear Jesus Christ discussed, he > > wouldn't feel comfortable, don't you see? And they got that idea out of > > 'Sermon on the Mount'." > > > > Bill W promised Gene that when the BB was reprinted, Gene's story "The Booze > > Fighter" would be included. But after a year, Gene got drunk and by the time he > > got back in the early 1940's his chance to get into the BB was lost. Gene was
> > a wonderful, gentle giant of a man, an elder statesman in the finest sense.
I > > knew him for about 8 years in my home group until I moved away in 1979, and Gene
> > passed away a few years after that, he died sober and surrounded by AA friends.
> > His full story can be read at... > > http://www.silkworth.net/aahistory/genee_aa38.html > > > > Gene's signature and that of his sponsor Paul Stanley, appear in the first AA > > Big Book ever sold at a meeting. This book was purchased at Bill and Lois' > > home at a meeting in 1939 by Virginia McLeod and is now in AA Archives. > > > > The many signatures collected by Virginia in this book include early members > > including Bill and Bob and Ebby, and some surprises like Jack Alexander. This > > collection of signatures is fodder for its' own discussion thread. See it at > > http://www.barefootsworld.net/aa-nellwing.html Nell Wing's story, and scroll > > to a download link for a Word document. > > > > John M > > South Burlington, Vermont, US > >
> IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6461. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Times and places of AA Meetings in April 1939 From: allan_gengler . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/14/2010 11:03:00 PM
Chapter 12: That night, Al went to the meeting at T. Henry's. "I attended several of these
meetings before I discovered that not all the people there were alcoholics," he said. But in spite of his being Catholic, his reaction to the meetings was good. "We went to Akron for several weeks," he said, "before it was finally decided to undertake the organization of the Cleveland group. Toward the middle of May 1939, the first meeting was held in this room. At that meeting, there were a number of Akron people and all the Cleveland people. "When we began to have meetings, there was considerable debate as to what we would call the group. Various names were suggested. No others seemed to be fitting, so we began to refer to ourselves as Alcoholics Anonymous." ---------- It also refers many times prior to that as the "Cleveland contingent" ..... so I
guess that's what the second edition means when it writes "A second small group
promptly took shape at New York, to be followed in 1937 with the start of a third at Cleveland." So they didn't physically meet in Cleveland until May of 1939, but there was clearly a Cleveland group. --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, John Barton > > This third group of "Clevelanders" were still making the drive to Akron for the Weds meeting. The first meeting in Cleveland was May 11. 1939. This has been well documented in both DBGO and How it Worked. > > When Bill said (not an exact quote) by 1937 this thing had jumped over to Cleveland he didn't mean they were having meetings or an AA group (as we know it
to be now) in Cleveland but that there was a group of "Clevelanders" who had gotten sober. > > John B
> > --- On Thu, 4/8/10, allan_gengler > Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Times and places of AA Meetings in April 1939
> > > The Forward to the Second Editions says there were > > THREE groups. > >
> > From the FORWARD: "A second small group promptly took > > shape at New York, to be followed in 1937 with the start of > > a third at Cleveland. Besides these, there were scattered > > alcoholics who had picked up the basic ideas in Akron or New > > York who were trying to form groups in other cities. By late > > 1937, the number of members having substantial sobriety time > > behind them was sufficient to convince the membership that a > > new light had entered the dark world of the > > alcoholic." >
++++Message 6462. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA # 28 Gene E in NYC From: John Moore . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/14/2010 9:14:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I pondered the same question for years Keith. The Big Book came out in April 1935 and Gene got sober in July ... and I did hear Gene say the same thing many many times over the years. He knew what he was told, and he believed he was # 28 in AA, according to Bill W. However Gene was a newcomer at the time, and a very shaky one, so it fits better in my mind that he was # 28 in NY, no matter what he thought. Too late to quiz him again, but the same statement raised eyebrows in the 1970's just as it does today. Akron had a lot more members. Maybe if NY had around 30 members and Akron had around 60, you might get close to 100, is what I figure. Bill and Bob assigned numbers and I am pretty sure, from talking to my aged sponsor, that they did not re use any numbers. In Bill's words from a talk about the creation of the Big Book, he said that AA "boasted" about 100 members, and Bill went on to say it might well have been that, a boast... John IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6463. . . . . . . . . . . . AA Oldtimers at the International and What is on offer at your 1st International??? From: John R Reid . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/14/2010 6:59:00 PM
continuous Sobriety and the Oldtimers Meeting is one of the major highlights.
Group, District, Area and Region, to the Australian Hospitality Room which will be in the La Reina Rooms on the mezzanine floor of the Hilton Palacio del Rio on the corner of Alamo and Market and across the road from the Henry Gonzalez Convention Center.
from
John R on behalf of the interim committee for the Australian DownUnder Rock Solid Boomerang Group which will officially convene in San Antonio from 30 June 2010 and disbanded 5 July 2010. And like all new Groups we will be looking for Members to join the Group, to be of Service and enjoy the Fellowship & Fun and to Share the Hospitality with others. (all the work done by this committee is done in the normal 12 Step manner of not seeing reward or recognition and to simple stay sober by being of some small service).
Boomerang pins we and why so many of us found the Australian Boomerang to be the most essential pin for so many of us to take home from an International, but why???"
the
answers can be found via good sponsorship and from approved literature. Broken Hill Jack said "when we were active alcoholics we used the determination streak to get a drink, now we are sober we can use that same determination to stay sober, we survived when we were drinking, now we are sober we can kick on by going straight to God as in the first word in the Serenity Prayer and be determined to show others how we have recovered and the benefits of long term
sobriety will keep coming back to us, just like the Boomerang". Bill W's experience and determination via the boomerang can be found on Pages 29
and 30 of 'Pass It On':- Quote: Page 29/4th paragraph on: - Encouraged by his
grandfather, Bill plunged into a succession of activities with single-minded determination - a trait that remained with him throughout his life. One project that stood out in his memory was the boomerang project. "My grandfather got in the habit of coming to me with what he thought were impossible projects," Bill recalled. "One day he said to me, 'Will-for that's what he called me-'Will, I've been reading a book on Australia, and it says that the natives down there have something they called boomerangs, which is a weapon they throw, and if it misses its mark, it turns and returns to the thrower. And Will,' he said challengingly, 'it says in this book that nobody but an Australian can make and throw a boomerang'
could do it. I can remember how I cried out, "Well, I will be the first white man ever to make and throw a boomerang!" I suppose at this particular juncture I was 11 or 12." For most children, Bill later reflected, such an ambition might have lasted a few days or at most a few weeks. "But mine was a power drive that kept on for six months, and I did nothing else during all that time but whittle on those infernal boomerangs. I sawed the headboard out of my bed to get just the right
piece of wood, and out in the old workshop at night by the light of the lantern
I whittled away." Finally, the day came when Bill made a boomerang that worked. He called his grandfather to watch him as he threw the boomerang. It circled the churchyard near their house and almost struck Fayette in the head as it came back. "I remember how ecstatically happy and stimulated I was by the crowning success," Bill said. "I had become Number One man." Success with the boomerang now set Bill to proving himself a Number One man in other activities. He decided that with enough perseverance and determination, he could do anything he set his mind to. Unquote. Thanks are to God for our Founders, Pioneers and Oldtimers; those who have gone
before us who had a determination streak and were prepared to persevere with the
growth of AA and to keep coming back to provide a solid foundation for the Fellowship. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6464. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: early issues Upper Room From: Doug B. . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/12/2010 3:37:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have all of the Upper Rooms published from 1935 to 1960 except 4. 2 from 1954....1 from 1958 and 1 from 1959 Since it is still published and they own the copyright....making reprints would be up to them...if you are looking something here or there...I could scan a few....
(dougb at aahistory.com) Doug B. http://www.aahistory.com IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6465. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The long early drafts of the Big Book manuscript From: Norman Ogden . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/12/2010 3:24:00 PM
(etatselaer at yahoo.com) -- and tell me your mailing address and I'll send you one reply. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6466. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA and Buddhism From: grault . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/15/2010 4:31:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Although I can't answer your questions, perhaps group members would be interested in more recent history of A.A. in Thailand. (I've been a long-term visitor to Thailand for over ten years, and since retiring about four years ago have been living there over half each year.) Despite the reference in As Bill Sees It, the fact is that until very recently
A.A. in Thailand has been virtually entirely composed of expats, English-speaking travelers, and the like. . . not Thais. Just about three or four years ago one or two of our expat members introduced some of the A.A. basics to a friendly English-speaking Thai nurse (Thailand's "Sister Ignatia"?!) who supervises the detox and recovery program at a "treatment center" in Khon Kaen, in northeastern Thailand... She welcomed any help offered, and began to use some of A.A.'s ideas. Nowadays in Thailand, A.A. is a bit comparable to what it was in the U.S. in,
say, 1939. It's exciting! A.A. is (very slowly and laboriously) spreading into
indigenous non-English-speaking Thais. Each year recently an indigenous Thai contingent has attended and enjoyed the A.A. conventions in Pattaya and Hua Hin (a translator is utilized for much of the program). Last year there was a small conference in Bangkok partially organized and funded by G.S.O. and attended by about twenty expat members, two English-speaking Thais, and two representatives from G.S.O. Two "problems" in the spread of Thai-A.A. are that the word used for "God" in the Thai-language version of the Big Book means "the Christian God" to them, and of course the treatment center employs "A.A." for alcoholism and drug addiction indiscriminately. Neither issue should prevent the full spread of the availability of A.A.'s recovery program to any and all indigenous non-English-speaking Thai alcoholics over the next few years. --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Dougbert > > What was the name of the person who established the initial contact between AA and the Buddhist world? Where exactly in Thailand did it occur? Do we have any more details beyond the brief reference in As Bill Sees It? > > Do you have any historical data on Dwight Goddard? Could he have been the initial contact between A.A. and the Buddhist world? Did Bill W. or Dr. Bob ever meet with Goddard and discuss Buddhism? > > I am curious about page 223, As Bill Sees It, which states: "A minister in Thailand wrote (Goddard was a minister in China and Japan), "We took A.A.s Twelve Steps to the largest Buddhist monastery in this province, and the head priest (we don't have priests in Buddhism) said, 'Why, these steps are fine! For us as Buddhists, it might be slightly more acceptable if you had inserted the word 'good' in your Steps instead of 'God.' Nevertheless, you say that it is God as you understand Him, and that must certainly include the good. Yes, A.A.'s Twelve Steps will surely be accepted by the Buddhists around here.'" >
++++Message 6467. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA # 28 Gene E in NYC From: Gary Becktell . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/18/2010 12:47:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In April, 1935, the Big Book was still 4 years away from 'coming out'. G ----- Original Message ----- From: John Moore Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: AA # 28 Gene E in NYC
April 1935 and Gene got sober in July .... IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6468. . . . . . . . . . . . 4021 Clubhouse of Philadelphia old-timers panel April 24 From: Cindy Miller . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/16/2010 5:12:00 PM
committee of friends who are dedicated to helping it stay afloat in these difficult financial times. They are hosting an Old-Timers Panel on April
24, 2010 at a facility nearby. Among the speakers will be Clyde B.( 63 years). Also speaking is Liz B. (57 years) from Queens, NY. And we will have Mary R., who has 50 years in Al-Anon. The date is April 24, 2010, and the event runs from 12:00-5:00. The address is 801 S. 48th St (Calvary Community Center) Philadelphia, PA. P.S. Please forgive me if I have any of these sobriety times incorrectly!! Best, Cindy Miller > `·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>
> (jlobdell54 at hotmail.com) > > **64 YEARS** > > The longest living in the area where I live is Clyde B., June 20, > 1946. In a couple of months or so, he will have 64 years of sobriety. >
++++Message 6469. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: RE: Regarding longest sobriety in A.A.
From: Luvfrmnana@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/18/2010 3:32:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There is one person listed on the anniversary site that seems to be missing on the list that is currently being discussed: Esther C., July 23, 1943. She has passed away as the site list states. You will find her memorial book and part of her story on the site also. In His service, Peny
++++Message 6470. . . . . . . . . . . . Early 1970s pamphlet: Is A.A. For You?
From: Boyd . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/15/2010 9:08:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does anyone have a photocopy or PDF of the early 1970's version of the A.A. pamphlet, Is A.A. For You? Thanks, Boyd P. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6471. . . . . . . . . . . . Singleness of purpose From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/21/2010 3:54:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: "Dolores" (dolli at dr-rinecker.de) I have a question, where does the phrase "Singleness of Purpose" come from? Who used it first?
chapter
on Tradition Five, "Each group has but one primary purpose - to carry its message to the alcoholic who still suffers." 1st line of 5th paragraph refers to: "this singleness of purpose" And then the 1st line of the next paragraph refers to: "the wisdom of A.A.'s single purpose." And then several paragraphs further along it says: "Thank heaven I came up with
the right answer for that one. It was based foursquare on the single purpose of A.A." Also see the chapter on Tradition Eight: The first paragraph says: "Every time we have tried to professionalize our Twelfth Step, the result has been exactly the same: Our single purpose has been defeated." Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana, U.S.) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6472. . . . . . . . . . . . Burning desire From: Dolores . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/15/2010 10:42:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Greetings, Thank you all for the the information that I have received thru History Lovers. I have a question, where does the phrase "burning desire" come from? Who used it first? At the beginning of meetings, one often hears the phrase used, "does anyone have a burning desire?" What does this really mean? as I often find it misused by some members to complain about other members.
From: John & Linda Dunn . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/20/2010 10:17:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Doug, I wrote the Upper Room and they sent me copies of April, May and June 1935. October, November and December 1937.
Subject: Re: early issues Upper Room I have all of the Upper Rooms published from 1935 to 1960 except 4. 2 from 1954....1 from 1958 and 1 from 1959 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6474. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA and Buddhism From: JoeA . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/20/2010 6:39:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII As a practicing Rinzai Buddhist, I appreciate this thread. In the civilian world
there is a growing body of work for Buddhists in AA and we are used to people
twisting our structures to suit their preconceptions (such as the "head priest"
notation in Bill W.'s story, quoted previously). The five basic Precepts of Buddhism are; Avoid killing, avoid lying, avoid stealing, avoid sexual misconduct and avoid intoxication. They are a good expression of my personal work with Steps 10, 11 and 12.
culture
it has entered since is moved out of northern India a few centuries BC (or BCE
to use the new, hip, politically correct designation). Even when it does, it will not be a problem for Buddhists to approach and use the Steps because of the very reason given by the "high priest." Most Buddhist understand that the origins of AA through a group of Christians means the Christian themes and terms
are both key to the message and unavoidable. It is not our charge to cut away
the roots of what has grown within the contemporary fellowship. Rather, in my own jobs of sponsoring and giving free classes through a local recovery center (in Raleigh, North Carolina - not Thailand), I hope to help people find the depth of their own religion in their quest for spirituality and
avoid anything that might suggest they convert to my own spirituality. The Higher Power for me is what is true, and what has been shown true throughout my few decades of recovery is that the truth is found by living the principles expounded by the Steps and with all faiths. The effort to delve deeper and wider
into the religions reveals more of the practical meaning of the Steps. And the evidence suggests that the principles of AA have been shown to be true
and available to anyone who follows point (c) - "that God (as you understand god) could and would if he were sought." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6475. . . . . . . . . . . . Act as If From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/20/2010 10:28:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I recently came across this which tweaked my curiosity. "The rule for us is perfectly simple. Do not waste time bothering whether you
"love" thy neighbor; act as if you did. As soon as we do this we find one of the
great secrets. When you are behaving as if you loved someone, you will presently come to love him."
love
between human beings, but also God's love for man and man's love for God. About
the second of these two, people are often worried. They are told they ought to love God. They can not find any such feeling in themselves. The answer is the same as before. Act as if you did. Do not sit trying to manufacture feelings. Ask yourself, "If I were sure that I loved God, what would I do?' When you have found the answer go and do it. pp.131-132 Mere Christianity C.S. Lewis Recognizing the AA fellowship suggestions of "Act as If" and "Fake it till you
make it" I decided to follow the trail and the joy in finding the following from
William James "If you want a quality, act as if you already had it." Although I find this quote all over the internet I could not source it to a particular work of James. I found this by Norman Vincent Peale Enthusiasm Makes the Difference p.20 Many years ago the noted psychologist, William James, announced his famous "As
If" principle. He said "If you want a quality act as if already had it." Try the
"as if" technique. It is packed with power and it works. I also came across this Wiki Post Sam Shoemaker gets the credit for originating the "Act As If" and "Fake It Until
You Make It" practice that is popular in Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous circles. Note that Shoemaker invented that clever persuasion technique to help in the religious conversion of doubtful newcomers, not to help anyone to quit drinking or drugging: "Act As If" In 1954, the Reverend Samuel M. Shoemaker wrote a story about an unfortunate who
came to him admitting that he didn't believe in God and certainly didn't know
how to pray. Shoemaker asked him to "try an experiment," as he had nothing to lose. He asked him to get down on his knees and say anything at all that came to his mind, addressing his thoughts to "The Unknown." He then asked if the man could read just one chapter from the Bible, from the book of John. Solely out of
respect for Shoemaker, the man obliged, but fighting every step of the way. This
went on for some time, until one day the man actually began praying to God and
reading the Bible and other works on his own. The man eventually became a spiritual leader within his church. Shoemaker believed that this was possible because the man "acted as if he had faith" until faith came by accident, or "until there was an opening for God to come through."
194.
"technique" to Sam Shoemaker who could have gotten it from either William James or C.S. Lewis. But Sam surely may have introduced this to the fellowship.
Spiritual Angle"
comes
a time for decision and action. It may be a relatively simple decision: really
to enter wholly into the experiment. The approach is more like science than like
philosophy. We do not so much try to reason it out in abstract logic; we choose
a hypothesis, act as if it were true, and see whether it is. If it's not, we can
discard it. If it is, we are free to call the experiment a success." Several other things in the CS Lewis book caught my eye as I found many similarites with the philosophy of the 12&12. It would appear that Lewis's writings were an influence on both Sam Shoemaker and Father John Ford who helped
Bill with the 12&12. But one example is given below. 12&12 p.109 From great numbers of such experiences, we could predict that the doubter who
still claimed that he hadn't got the "spiritual angle," and who still considered his well-loved A.A. group the higher power, would presently love God and call
Him by name. CF - Lewis ..."presently come to love him." If anyone else has any insight on Act as If or Father John Ford's work on the
12&12 I'd be quite interested. God Bless John B IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6476. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Act as If From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/21/2010 4:52:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hans Vaihinger, the "Philosophy of As If," was the important figure here. John, All of these references that you have given go back, either directly or at second hand, to a German philosopher who was very famous and extremely well known in the very late nineteenth and early twentieth century. During that period, all sorts of people read him and were influenced by his ideas, although he has become little more than a footnote or a sentence or two in modern works on philosophy and the history of philosophy. __________________________________ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Vaihinger < Yüklə 25,47 Mb. Dostları ilə paylaş:
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