Aa history Lovers 2010 moderators Nancy Olson and Glenn F. Chesnut page
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| Hi,
All the information you want can be found at: http://www.aaholygrail.com/ --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Michael" > > Hi all, > > I know this has been addressed before, but I'm having trouble > finding the answer searching previous posts. My question concerns the > master copy of the original manuscript (multilith edition), which has > been sold twice at Sotheby's (First time in 2004, second time in > 2007 for substantial sums.) > > What I would like to know is, who actually was in possession of it and > received payment when it was auctioned off the first time? And, do we > know the trail of ownership? Lois to Barry L. to ... who? > > Thank you, > > Mike Margetis > Brunswick, MD >
++++Message 6828. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Master Copy Original Manuscript From: Dudley Dobinson . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/25/2010 8:03:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII http://www.aaholygrail.com/3.htms http://www.aabibliography.com/barry_leach_living_sober.html The above is a link to the current owner's web site. (Ken R.) It was first sold
by the heirs of Barry Leach (Author of Living Sober). As I understand the previous history Lois Wilson gave Barry the document. I could expand on the reason for this but I would only be repeating previous discussions on AAHL. The
second link above would indicate that Barry wanted this document to go to AA Archives. In fellowship, Dudley Dobinson from the Emerald Isles IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6829. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: When were the circle and triangle officially registered? From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/26/2010 12:41:00 AM
"ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS (r in a circle) is a registered trademark of A.A. World Services, Inc." was in the 23rd Printing of the Third Edition, 1986. The first to have the statement, "ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS (r in circle), A.A. (r in circle), and (the circle and triangle symbol plus r in a circle) was the 24th Printing 1986.
triangle on the full title page. The first to have a trademark symbol (r in a circle) was the 20th Printing 1985. None of these had the statement on the copyright page.
triangle, but I don't have a complete collection of the Third Edition. This, of course, doesn't answer the question of when the trademark was applied for. Tommy H in Baton Rouge At 22:08 8/25/2010, Glenn Chesnut wrote: >Sam S. (Elkhart, Indiana) asked me a question >which I did not know the answer to. During what >period of time was the circle and triangle logo >officially registered as a trademark by AA? > >See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trademark > >Who did the paperwork and to what trademarks >registry was it sent, and when? > >Sam pointed me to the fact that in the 34th >printing (1989) of the third edition of the >Big Book, for example, on the copyright page >it says: > >ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS,® A.A.® and [an equilateral >triangle inside a circle]® are registered trademarks >of A.A. World Services, Inc. > >And Sam had another printing of the third edition, >printed a little later, which also had this statement >on the copyright page. > >When did this statement first start appearing on >the copyright page of the Big Book? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6830. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Master Copy Original Manuscript From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/26/2010 12:01:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I would note this book is available thru preorder from Amazon for $40.95 plus shipping. Amazon tells me the book is scheduled for shipment July 22 to October 5, 2010.
Tommy H in Baton Rouge At 22:35 8/25/2010, rpeternixon wrote: >Hi, > >All the information you want can be found at: > >http://www.aaholygrail.com/ > >
>--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Michael" > >
> > Hi all, > >
> > I know this has been addressed before, but I'm having trouble > > finding the answer searching previous posts. My question concerns the > > master copy of the original manuscript (multilith edition), which has > > been sold twice at Sotheby's (First time in 2004, second time in > > 2007 for substantial sums.) > >
> > What I would like to know is, who actually was in possession of it and > > received payment when it was auctioned off the first time? And, do we > > know the trail of ownership? Lois to Barry L. to ... who? > >
> > Thank you, > >
> > Mike Margetis > > Brunswick, MD IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6831. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Fr. John Ford: AA rejection of Oxford Group absolutism, etc. From: Chuck Parkhurst . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/26/2010 3:09:00 AM
intimate and confidential step .... just a thought: "Rightly and naturally, we think well before we choose the person or persons with whom to take this intimate and confidential step. Those of us belonging to a religious denomination which requires confession must, and of course, will want to go to the properly appointed authority whose duty it is to receive it.
Though we have no religious conception, we may still do well to talk with someone ordained by an established religion. We often find such a person quick to see and understand our problem. Of course, we sometimes encounter people who do not understand alcoholics." "If we cannot or would rather not do this, we search our acquaintance for a close-mouthed, understanding friend. Perhaps our doctor or psychologist will be the person. It may be one of our own family, but we cannot disclose anything to our wives or our parents which will hurt them and make them unhappy. We have no right to save our own skin at another person's expense. Such parts of our story we tell to someone who will understand, yet be unaffected." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6832. . . . . . . . . . . . Problem Drinkers (1946 March of Time) on Turner Classics From: Bruce C . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/25/2010 9:49:00 AM
will be aired on (TCM) Turner Classic Movies. September 5, 2010 at 11:00 p.m., see the link below: http://www.tcm.com/thismonth/article/?cid=345580&mainArticleId=343404 This is from the HBO Archives. I found this a few years ago and placed them in the time line of our history. see link below http://www.aamuncie.org/March_of_Time_1946.html Bruce C. ________________________________________________ 1946 March of Time Problem Drinkers The first public film record of A.A. work (Public Information), was the 1946 March of Time feature, "Problem Drinkers". The March 1946 issue of the Grapevine reported the following:
alcoholism, in which Alcoholics Anonymous is to play a large part. The film, said a March of Time official, will probably not be ready for release for several months to come. Prior to the release they will notify the Central Office, which in turn will inform all A.A. groups in time to catch the picture
immediately it is out." The June Grapevine reported the following: "Release date for The March of Time documentary film on alcoholism has been announced as June 14. The picture includes scenes taken at the A.A. Central Office in Manhattan; the
NCEA (Nat'l Committee for Education on Alcoholism); New York's Knickerbocker Hospital; the Yale School for Alcohol Studies; and at the clubrooms of one A.A. group--chosen by The March of Time people because it seemed typical. A.A.s anonymity has been respected throughout. No A.A.s face is shown in the film. The faces distinguishable in the shots taken at the Central Office are those of non-alcoholics. And those seen at the group's clubrooms are actors'. The one exception is Marty M., who emerged from her anonymity when called upon to become executive director of NCEA."
that are from the HBO Archives collection. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6833. . . . . . . . . . . . Circle Triangle Trademark From: mark_area56 . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/27/2010 9:31:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Circle and Triangle Trademarks by Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc. Source – United States Patent and Trademark Office Website Circle Triangle Design - Trademark Registration # 1314581 First Use - July 1955 Filed - March 8, 1984 Registered – January 15, 1985 Cancellation Date – October 17, 2005 Circle Triangle Design – Service Mark Registration # 1557358 First Use – July 1955 Filed – December 12, 1988 Registered – September 19, 1989 Cancellation Date – March 25, 1996 Circle Triangle Design plus AA (words) – Trademark Service Mark Registration # 1560849 First Use – July 1955 Filed – December 12, 1988 Registered – October 17, 1989 Cancellation Date – April 22, 1996 Circle Triangle Design plus AA Unity Service Recovery (words) – Service Mark
Registration # 1556288 First Use – February 1, 1955 Filed – December 12, 1988 Registered – September 12, 1989 Cancellation Date – March 18, 1996
Registration # 1371267 First Use – February 1, 1955 Filed – February 26, 1985 Registered – November 19, 1985 Cancellation Date – August 26, 2006 Circle Triangle Design plus AA General Service Conference (words) – Trademark Registration # 1322117 First Use – February 1, 1955 Filed – April 2, 1984 Registered – February 26, 1985 Cancellation Date – December 3, 2005
– Service Mark Registration # 1555284 First Use – February 1, 1955 Filed – December 12, 1988 Registered – September 5, 1989 Cancellation Date – March 11, 1996
service marks listed. Other than the seven listed above, there are two for the "A.A." mark showing first use on March 1, 1939 and still live plus one for "Alcoholics Anonymous" with a first use also on March 1, 1939 and also still live. The remaining marks are for "The Big Book", "Box 459", both still live, and the marks used for the last few International Conventions. Just to close some loops from the recent discussions. Mark IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6834. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Circle Triangle Trademark From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/27/2010 7:36:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The circle and triangle symbol made its debut at the 1955 International Convention in St Louis. It was featured on a large banner at the back of the stage (re AA comes of Age - pp 40 and 139). A December 1993 Grapevine article gives the history of the symbol and states "the circle and triangle symbol was registered as an official AA mark in 1955."
Arthur
From: Glenn Chesnut Arthur, I suspected something like this when I first asked the question. This indicates that as of 1993, there were people at the New York AA office who mistakenly thought the circle and triangle had been officially registered as a trademark with the United States Patent and Trademark Office back in 1955. But in proper legal terminology that was only "First Use."
registered as a trademark until 1985. That is why the R in a circle (indicating a legally registered trademark) did not start appearing in Big Books in conjunction with the circle and triangle logo (as Tommy Hickcox noted) until 1985/1986. So the actions later taken by the New York GSO and AA World Services to try to stop anyone but them using that logo, was a attempt to lock the barn without even realizing that this particular horse had already successfully stolen away fifty years earlier. Glenn - - - - See Message No. 6833 from "mark_area56" http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/6833 Circle and Triangle Trademarks by Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc. Source – United States Patent and Trademark Office Website Circle Triangle Design - Trademark Registration # 1314581 First Use - July 1955 Filed - March 8, 1984 Registered – January 15, 1985 Cancellation Date – October 17, 2005 Circle Triangle Design – Service Mark Registration # 1557358 First Use – July 1955 Filed – December 12, 1988 Registered – September 19, 1989 Cancellation Date – March 25, 1996 Circle Triangle Design plus AA (words) – Trademark Service Mark Registration # 1560849 First Use – July 1955 Filed – December 12, 1988 Registered – October 17, 1989 Cancellation Date – April 22, 1996 Circle Triangle Design plus AA Unity Service Recovery (words) – Service Mark
Registration # 1556288 First Use – February 1, 1955 Filed – December 12, 1988 Registered – September 12, 1989 Cancellation Date – March 18, 1996
Registration # 1371267 First Use – February 1, 1955 Filed – February 26, 1985 Registered – November 19, 1985 Cancellation Date – August 26, 2006 Circle Triangle Design plus AA General Service Conference (words) – Trademark Registration # 1322117 First Use – February 1, 1955 Filed – April 2, 1984 Registered – February 26, 1985 Cancellation Date – December 3, 2005
– Service Mark Registration # 1555284 First Use – February 1, 1955 Filed – December 12, 1988 Registered – September 5, 1989 Cancellation Date – March 11, 1996
service marks listed. Other than the seven listed above, there are two for the "A.A." mark showing first use on March 1, 1939 and still live plus one for "Alcoholics Anonymous" with a first use also on March 1, 1939 and also still live. The remaining marks are for "The Big Book", "Box 459", both still live, and the marks used for the last few International Conventions. Just to close some loops from the recent discussions. Mark IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6835. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: When were the circle and triangle officially registered? From: john wikelius . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/27/2010 3:43:00 PM
(cometkazie1 at cox.net) The first Big Book that has the statement, "ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS (r in a circle) is a registered trademark of A.A. World Services, Inc." was in the 23rd Printing of the Third Edition, 1986. The first to have the statement, "ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS (r in circle), A.A. (r in circle), and (the circle and triangle symbol plus r in a circle) was the 24th Printing 1986.
triangle on the full title page. The first to have a trademark symbol (r in a circle) was the 20th Printing 1985. None of these had the statement on the copyright page.
triangle, but I don't have a complete collection of the Third Edition. This, of course, doesn't answer the question of when the trademark was applied for. Tommy H in Baton Rouge IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6836. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Most alcoholics ... have lost the power of choice From: Charley Bill . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/25/2010 12:54:00 PM
> > Hello Group, > > One possible reason: Three pages earlier Bill says "But what about the > real alcoholic? He may start off as a moderate drinker; he may or may > not become a continuous hard drinker; but at some stage of his > drinking career he begins to lose all control of his liquor > consumption, once he starts to drink." Is it possible that a person > could be alcoholic that has not lost the "power of choice in drink"? > Could they wake up one day and realize they have begun to lose control > and if they continue drinking the way they have been they might become > a real alcoholic? It is the individual that makes the diagnoses they > are alcoholic, not any of us. Maybe Bill left a way in for the person > who truly believed they were alcoholic but had not lost the power of > choice in drink. > > Charles from Wisconsin > > Hooray for Charles! I usually point out that a person may be an 'incipient alcoholic' in my Joe and Charlie Workshops. It also provides a way for someone who is worried about their drinking but not ready to accept the label of alcoholic to join us in AA. They soon seem to forget that they ever objected to the label and enter into the Fellowship wholeheartedly.
be useful to state the obvious: No one has ever achieved sobriety by using the draft versions, but hundreds of thousands in countries all over the globe have done so using the approved editions? I certainly agree with Old Ben, it couldn't be better for us used to learning from books made from paper. However, different media is needed for many of our newcomers who did not grow up with books. - - - - From: This would suggest that no one got sober in AA before the first edition came out of the bindery. I know this is an area of some controversy, but I think the ideas embodied in the big book are more important than the specific way they are fixed in print, and the next 25 years is going to be nearly as important and difficult in the way we tell our story to a new population as the first 25 years were.
just tried to eat Fred Allen's Treadmill to Oblivion). It is full of legacy media. But I'm no less than ecstatic that I can buy a copy of the big book and have it downloaded to my kindle for 99 cents. I realize that not everyone has kindles, and a significant percentage of our new members have nothing left to lose and therefore won't have an eBook. But for others, this is a way to get our literature in the hands of those interested for a pittance with no one having to underwrite the cost. This is one of the most anonymous methods of delivery and it can be read in public without anyone besides the reader knowing what is being read. For those on the path who are not yet willing to embrace their alcoholism and are afraid of being labeled, this is a great improvement over paper. Visual methods are going to become more important than textual methods; perhaps they already are. Those of us with an interest in how we got here should play a major role in helping to guide the way to where we're going. The way the world embraces information is changing. I hope we can find the right path to change with it.
1941
From: jomo . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/28/2010 6:55:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This subject has probably been discussed before my time. But as a newcomer in the early 1970's in Los Angeles I saw, or believe I saw a carbon copy or a photo of the actual Irma Livoni letter. I have been curious about this letter and would like to ask a couple things. [1] First, has this letter, as some have said, been documented as the basis for
AA's Third Tradition? [2] and second, silkworth.com says that the original is held by its owner, and I
would like to know who is holding the letter now, and is there a photo of it or carbon copy archived somewhere and copies of it available? John M South Burlington, Vermont US ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS Post Office Box 607 Hollywood Station, Hollywood, California
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