>
> SEE ALSO Message 6257 "Bob E. (AA #11)"
>
> AND ALSO Message 6265 "Re: Bob E. (AA #11)"
>
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++++Message 6275. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Early meeting format: Paul K. on
King School meetings
From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/24/2010 6:00:00 AM
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This is a really good tape. The 1st hand
experience of early Akron (Dr Bob) AA from this
man who had 46 years when the tape was recorded
in 1988.
The meeting was a family meeting since the
disease was a family disease and never closed
at any set time. There was no prayer at the end
of the meeting with members holding hands and
saying a prayer,rather they all went into
silent prayer and meditation individually.
He explains working the steps and sponsorship
as it was originally done. His explanation of
the history of AA is as he remembers it.
Great praise for Dr Bob,and Anne.
Shakey Mike Gwirtz
Phila, PA
- - - -
In a message dated 1/23/2010 elg3_79@yahoo.com
writes:
There is a recording of Paul K., an early member
who attended meetings with Dr. Bob at King School,
sharing about this experience many years later
from the podium -- it is available for free at:
http://xa-speakers.org/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=1850
Y'all's in service,
Ted G.
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++++Message 6276. . . . . . . . . . . . Having employers read the chapter To
Employers
From: Harriet Dodd . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/25/2010 10:25:00 AM
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Dear History Lovers
Would you please be able to give me some
information on the chapter "To Employers."
I would like to know, was it a procedure to
take the Big Book into the work place, and ask
employers to read the book (or that particular
chapter)?
Did they recommend that employers use the Big
Book, or how was it known about?
I couldnt find anything specific on the group
blogs.
Thanks very much,
Harriet
- - - -
From the moderator: Harriet is asking if we
have any stories of AA people taking copies
of the Big Book to employers during the early
days, to ask if they had any alcoholic
employees they could work with, or whatever.
It seems like I may have heard of that, but I
can't remember where.
Does anyone in the group know how Mrs. Marty
Mann recommended approaching businesses
where it was known that they had problems
with alcoholism among their employees?
It seems to me that when the EAP movement
started later on (Employee Assistance Progam),
that they found that it was easier to get
employees actually to come in, if they just
put it (at the public level) in terms of general
assistance with any kind of problem. But in
fact they found that in the majority of the
cases, alcohol and/or drugs were the cause of
all the other problems (marital, financial,
absenteeism, etc.).
I know we have members of the AAHistoryLovers
who have led EAP's, who could tell us more
about that.
G.C.
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++++Message 6277. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill''s spiritual experience --
belladonna induced?
From: bbthumpthump . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/25/2010 9:17:00 AM
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I read on Wikipedia that Bill had his White
Light Spiritual Experience while under the
effects of Charles Towns' Belladonna Cure,
which evokes hallucinations in the patient.
What can you tell me about this?
- - - -
From the moderator:
Belladonna was part of the Towns' treatment,
used to help keep the patient from going into
major DT's. If Bill W. was given belladonna on
this, his fourth visit to Towns (and in fact,
we don't really know the answer to this for
sure, based on my reading),
would that much of the belladonna still have been
in his system at the time of his vision of
light?
Could belladonna have given this sort of white
light experience as a hallucination? The
descriptions of belladonna intoxication seem
to be saying that it was like the hallucinations
accompanying the DT's, only a little milder,
and what you experience when you're having DT's
is most definitely NOT Bill's report of a
positive and fulfilling experience of relief
and freedom.
All in all, the descriptions I have read of
what belladonna does to you don't sound
anything remotely like Bill W.'s white light
experience:
Belladonna produces dilated pupils, sensitivity to light, blurred vision,
tachycardia, loss of balance, staggering, headache, rash, flushing, dry
mouth
and throat, slurred speech, urinary retention, constipation, confusion,
hallucinations, delirium, and convulsions. The plant's deadly symptoms are
caused by atropine's disruption of the parasympathetic nervous system's
ability
to regulate non-volitional/subconscious activities such as sweating,
breathing,
and heart rate. Its anticholinergic properties will cause in humans the
disruption of cognitive capacities like memory and learning.
That sure doesn't sound like Bill W.'s
mountain top experience to me!
But have any of our members ever had experience
with taking belladonna, perhaps in their
misspent youths? What actually happens when
you take the stuff?
Also be sure and see Bill Lash's excellent and
very thorough study of all this in Message #1493
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/1493
Bill Lash describes all the stuff that was involved
in the treatment, etc., etc.
Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)
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++++Message 6278. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Clyde B. and Freeman Carpenter
From: diazeztone . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/25/2010 2:45:00 PM
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Interesting ---- is Clyde B. ("Freeman Carpenter")
still alive?
(Clyde has email and website selling that
book and others: www.freemancarpenter.com )
LD Pierce
aabibliography.com
- - - -
"J. Lobdell" wrote:
>
> My recollection is that Chauncey C. was the longest sober member at
Toronto
2005 and died in 2006. Did he get sober at Dr. Bob's [house] in Akron in
1941?
He was succeeded as oldest by Easy E. down in Alabama, who got sober, I
think,
in Nov 1942, and died in 2008? I don't know of any living members who got
sober
before the end of WW2 (and stayed sober).
There is in Bristol, Pennsylvania, Clyde B. who got sober in Boston June 20
1946
and wrote a book a dozen years ago -- SIXTY YEARS A DRUNK FIFTY YEARS SOBER
(under the pen-name Freeman Carpenter). He's the longest sober I've met.
>
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++++Message 6279. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bob E. (AA #11)
From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/25/2010 2:45:00 PM
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As someone had pointed out previously there is a discrepancy in Bob's sober
date
detailed below in this excerpt from the manuscript the Golden Road of
Devotion,
Chapter Four "And We Began To Count Noses"
"We return to Akron to find Bob Evans. According to The Amos Roster, Bob had
been dry sixteen months, dating his entry as October of 1936. Bob was a
wealthy
banker and is mentioned extensively in DR. BOB and the Good Oldtimers (Note
64)
Bob seems to vividly recall his entry in the fellowship, according to his
taped
or transcribed interview that the author of DR. BOB and the Good Oldtimers
refers to, as February of 1937 (Note 65) The difference between the two
accounts, Evans' and Dr. Bob's, as to when Bob Evans arrived on the scene is
frustrating and certainly leaves us with yet another unanswered question."
"DR. BOB and the Good Oldtimers states that "Bob E." (Robert Evans) came
into AA
in February of 1937(Note 66) Unfortunately, this statement is not given a
reference source (Note 67), although later it is referenced to the 1954
recording or transcript frequently cited and appears to be the recollections
of
Bob Evans himself. (Note 68) For now we will defer to DR. BOB and the Good
Oldtimers and place Bob Evans on our list in 1937."
"It is our position, that The Amos Roster as now introduced, is the most
accurate source of information now available on the early Akron members.
Being
written by Dr. Bob in or before February of 1938, should rightly be
considered
more authoritative then sources previously used including the memory of
various
individuals who were sources for, or the authors of, Alcoholics Anonymous
Comes
Of Age, DR. BOB and the Good Oldtimers and Pass It On."
"It is also interesting to note that The Amos Roster, as we have named it,
or
Dr. Bob's list is not referenced in DR. BOB and the Good Oldtimers, leading
this
writer to believe that the document (The Amos Roster) was not known or made
available to its author. (Note 69)"
Note 64 DR. BOB and the Good Oldtimers; p. 101,116-119,122
123,142,146,152,156-157,176,217,221-223.
Note 65 DR. BOB and the Good Oldtimers; p. 353, Sources, see 116-119 citing
C,
T, 1954 (B). See p.101, Feb 37 Sobriety Date
Note 66 DR. BOB and the Good Oldtimers; p. 101
Note 67 DR. BOB and the Good Oldtimers; p. 352, Sources, see 101 lines 10-11
are
not referenced or cited.
Note 68 DR. BOB and the Good Oldtimers; p. 353, Sources, see 116-119 citing
C,
T, 1954 (B).
Note 69 DR. BOB and the Good Oldtimers; pages 128-135.
The "Amos Roster" refers to Dr Bob's hand written list of members provided
to
Frank Amos in February of 1938. (See Below)
The Amos Report
Many of us are familiar with the events following the "counting of noses"
which
took place in Akron during the second week of October 1937. (Note 1) Bill
was
introduced to Willard Richardson, one of John D. Rockefeller's closest
associates, by his brother-in-law Dr. Leonard Strong. After several meetings
with Rockefeller's advisors, Frank Amos made a visit to Akron in mid
February of
1938 to get a first hand look at Dr. Bob and the group of recovered drunks.
His
account of that visit, which was titled "THE NOTES ON AKRON, OHIO SURVEY by
FRANK AMOS" is well documented in DR. BOB and the Good Oldtimers (Note 2)
and to
a lesser extent in Alcoholics Anonymous Comes Of Age (Note 3) and Pass It On
(Note 4)
The account of Amos's Akron visit given in DR. BOB and the Good Oldtimers,
as
well as the other publications, omits one very important detail, that a list
of
the early Akron members was attached to The Amos Report. The likely reason
for
this key omission is because the list was not attached or included with The
Amos
Report filed in the GSO archives. A copy of this list, which was written by
Dr.
Bob on his office stationary, has recently been provided to the Archivist at
GSO.
This list of the pioneering Akron members, which we have dubbed "The Amos
Roster", is described below in an excerpt from a copy of The Amos Report
(Note
5) It may prove to be the first written list of members ever produced by one
of
our co-founders.
"Alcoholic Group
There are now some fifty men, and, I believe, two women former alcoholics,
all
considered practically incurable by physicians, who have been reformed and
so
far have remained teetotalers. A list of some of them is attached giving
their
business, the length in months they have been "dry", the period in years
they
were drinking, and their present age."
Notes:
1. Chapter IV, The Golden Road of Devotion
2. DR. BOB and the Good Oldtimers, pages 128-134
3. Alcoholics Anonymous Comes Of Age, pages 148-150
4. Pass It On, pages 181-187
5. 2/23/1938 (B)
Finally,
Many of us are guilty of perpetuating misinformation when we state that Joe
Q
Alcoholic was AA # "xyz"
After Bill Dotson there are precious few definitive dates or information on
who
got sober and when. The Amos Roster is an excellent source of info and must
be
considered "authoritative" but also has some nagging inconsistencies. We
know
they were counting members in New York and Akron seperately. For some, they
factored in a slip into their sober time, for others they reset the clock.
Still
others appear to have been deleted after they relapsed and din't come back
(i.e
Phil Smith, Walter Bray, Harold Grisinger)The research I have done on the
First
Forty which I believe has better sources and citations then previous works
posted on the internet shows that Bob Evans was the 23rd person to join the
fellowship. These people below all appear to have "joined the fellowship"
(meaning were trying to get or stay sober in the Oxford Group or with the
help
of Dr. Bob) before him.
1 Bill Wilson Dec 34 NY
2 Bob Smith May 35 Akron
3 Bill Dotson June 35 Akron
4 Ernie Galbraith July 35 Akron
5 Henry Parkhurst Sept 35 NJ
6 Walter Bray Sept 35 Akron
7 Phil Smith Oct 35 Akron
8 John Mayo Nov 35 MD
9 Silas Bent Nov 35 CT
10 Harold Grisinger Jan 36 Akron
11 Paul Stanley Jan 36 Akron
12 Tom Lucas Feb 36 Akron
13 Myron Williams Apr 36 NY
14 Joseph Doppler Apr 36 Cleveland
15 Robert Oviatt June 36 Cleveland
16 Harry Latta July 36 Akron
17 James Holmes Sept 36 Akron
18 Alfred Smith Jan 37 Akron
19 Alvin Borden Jan 37 Akron
20 Howard Searl Jan 37 Akron
21 William Ruddell Feb 37 NJ
22 Douglas Delanoy Feb 37 NJ
23 Robert Evans Feb 37 Akron
List is from the manuscript "The Golden Road of Devotion"...devoted History
Lovers might wish to compare these names to the Akron 226 List and or 100
list
"PIONEERS BY DATE OF SOBRIETY".
God Bless
--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "mdingle76" wrote:
>
> I like to speak for the "All Addicts Anonymous" people for I work for 24
Communications — the publishing group of AAA — which originally put out
24
Magazine. The article that J. Lobell refers to was written for 24 Magazine
in
September 1976 (6 months before the book "Dr. Bob and the Good oldtimers"
was on
the launching pad.) Yes, J. Lobell is right — the interview that we
recorded of
Bob E. (used in the Sept 1976, 24 Magazine) was later used in the "Dr. Bob"
book. (It is believed that we still have the tape recording of this
interview
and that there was much more said by Bob E. not used in the article
— although,
I haven't bumped into the tape in our archives yet.)
>
> The Sept 1976 article said: "Bob E. is the senior living member of
Alcoholics
Anonymous in length of sobriety. He was the eleventh man to join the
fellowship.
He still lives today in Akron, Ohio, as he did when he came into the Akron
group
— the first Alcoholics Anonymous group — back in 1936. Not long ago he
shared
with us the following recollections of what AA was like in the days when he
came
in . . . "
>
> Now, in 1990, 24 Communications tried to publish several 12 step books
through
Harper (one was called "Bill Wilson and the 12 Steps," another one was "Dr.
Bob
and the 12 Steps," etc., etc.) Well, the "Dr. Bob and the 12 steps" book had
featured the Bob E. article with a few minor changes — on of them being
the
death date of Bob E. as 1984. It said: "Bob E., until his death in 1984, was
the
senior living member of Alcoholics Anonymous in length of sobriety. He was
the
eleventh man to join the fellowship. . ."
>
> Does anybody else have any ideas or information about this?
>
> Matt D.
>
>
> --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "J. Lobdell" wrote:
> >
> > The date of death for Bob E., given by All Addicts Anonymous as 1984,
does
not agree with any primary source I can find. The passages quoted in their
article are clearly from the same recording quoted in DR BOB, a book which
was
begun March 1977, very shortly after Bob E. died in Akron (according to the
Record of Ohio Deaths 1958-2002) on 9 February 1977 -- at which time he
would
still have been the longest-sober member of A.A.
> >
> > But after 1977 and until his own death in March 1984, Clarence S. (DLD
Feb
1938) was regarded both by himself and by others as the longest-sober
member,
which suggests the accuracy of the putative 1977 deathdate for Bob E.
> >
> > Perhaps some member of HistoryLovers can fill us in on the 1984 death
date
in the AAA publication.
> >
> > - - - -
> >
> > Message 5300 says (as referred to in Message 6262
> > "Re: Early meeting format"):
> >
> > "SHORTLY BEFORE HIS DEATH IN 1984,
> > Bob E. shared ... the following recollection
> > of what AA was like when he first joined"
> >
> > IT THEN REFERS US TO THE ALL ADDICTS ANONYMOUS WEB SITE AT:
> >
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