J. Lobdell wrote in Message 5835:
>King's funds being taken away to execution. There is no particular
>existed. It refers quite simply to the fact that we (whoever we may
>elsewhere.
God," and I'm not at all sure "grace" is capitalized. Quibbling,
perhaps, but it gives the meaning a different slant.
I belive the five slogans which start "live easy but think first" are
authority to them. They originally appeared as slogans in the
Grapevine in the middle '50s according to Art Sheehan.
dependent on the eye of the beholder.
(serenitylodge at mac.com)
I do agree however, that the clear implication is that God's Grace is
predetermined to be available to some people but not all.
(Predestination is indeed a very hotly contentious religious dogma).
If/when I use that platitude, I always make sure that the grace *I*
understand is free and available to anyone and everyone. The only
thing that makes the difference, is whether or not each of us chooses
to make use of that empowering grace.
Hugs for the trudge.
Jon (Raleigh)
9/9/82
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++++Message 5839. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Powerless over people, places,
and things
From: MARLO . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/28/2009 8:34:00 AM
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The more I think about it, the more I think "I find some person, place,
thing,
or situation unacceptable to me" and "I must accept that person, place,
thing,
or situation" means I'm powerless over it. As somebody else said, the
concept
is the same, & those words are in the Book.
Interestingly enough, if you go back & read that story (which is funnier
than
Reader's Digest, IMHO), you'll notice that a LOT of the most frequently
repeated
"cliches" come from that one story.
"A new pair of glasses," my "magic magnifying mind," "acceptance was the
answer"
(heck! people recommend reading that whole paragraph/page!), "my serenity is
inversely proportional to my expectations" - a BUNCH of them!
So I still don't think it is impossible for the use of the phrase "powerless
over people, places, & things" to have originated as a paraphrase, or
mis-quotation, from this story. It may not have in actual fact come from
that
story, but it is certainly not beyond the realm of possibility.
That's my story, & I'm stickin' to it.
Marlo D.
Del Valle, Texas
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++++Message 5840. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Powerless over people places
things
From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/29/2009 10:55:00 AM
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Thank you Jared
It's refreshing in a history forum to see a
posting with citation and source reference
rather than assertion and editorial. The
following citation is from the very first
chapter drafted by Bill W in preparation for
the publication of the Big Book. That chapter
is "There Is a Solution" (pgs 24-25):
"When this sort of thinking is fully established
in an individual with alcoholic tendencies, he
has probably placed himself beyond human aid,
and unless locked up, may die or go permanently
insane. These stark and ugly facts have been
confirmed by legions of alcoholics throughout
history. But for the grace of God, there would
have been thousands more convincing demonstrations.
So many want to stop but cannot.
====================
AA's popular slogan plaques were first published
in 5 Grapevine issues from September-December1956
and February 1957. Four slogans are from the Big
Book: "But for the Grace of God" is from the
chapter "There Is A Solution" (on pg 25) as noted
above.
"Easy Does It," "First Things First" and "Live
and Let Live" are from the chapter "The Family
Afterward" (on pg 135). The slogan "Think,
Think, Think" is a bit of a mystery. Some say
it originated in Cleveland, Ohio in the mid-1940s,
however, its actual source is unknown.
The following is posted on the AA.org web site
at http://aa.org/subpage.cfm?page=287
". Q: What's the history of typical AA slogans
like "First Things First" and "One Day at a Time"?
A. We don't have a great deal of information
about the origins of AA's slogans and acronyms,
but we can provide some sharing and preliminary
information. Many of these slogans, as with
other practices in AA, were simply passed
along verbally to other members, so it is
impossible to know who started using them first.
It is possible that some of the slogans may
have originally stemmed from a part of the
Oxford Group Movement language, but it could
also be that they were original with Bill and
Dr. Bob and the early members.
Members have always inquired as to the origins
of various slogans, and it has always been
difficult to narrow down; in our research, we
discovered a letter written by former GSO
Archivist, Frank M., dated 1989, who responded
to a similar question that was posed to him.
This was Frank's response,
"Your interest in the origins of 'One Day at a
Time' is shared by many of us. Like hand-holding,
however, it's difficult to pin-point the exact
'moment.'"
That is the problem we find with most of our
AA slogans, unfortunately!
We do know, however, that many slogans commonly
heard have been around since the early days of
the Fellowship. In December of 1958 Ruth Hock
(non-alcoholic), who was AA's first secretary,
wrote a response to a similar question concerning
different slogans. In her reply Ruth wrote:
"Bill [W.] and I first worked together in January
1936 when he had been sober just a little over
one year and at that time 'Easy Does It,' 'Live
and Let Live,' and 'First Things First,' were
part of the daily conversation. They were also
used in the very first drafts of the book, but
probably only Bill himself could tell you where
he picked them up.
"As far as I'm concerned all of the above were
introduced into A.A. by Bill W. himself although
not original with him. "Some of these could have
been used in Oxford Group meetings but there is
no way for sure."
In addition to Ruth's response, page 220 of
Bill W.'s biography, Pass It On, also addresses
this topic:
"Some 'A.A. saws' were also used as long ago as
the late 1930s: 'First Things First,' 'Easy Does
It,' 'Live and Let Live.' Because these appear
in the first edition of the Big Book (at the end
of the chapter on 'The Family Afterward'), it's
probable that the use of the slogans originated
with Bill and that he brought them with him from
Vermont - old saws with new teeth. ."
====================
In regard to the Traditions, they are to the
Legacy of Unity what the Steps are to the Legacy
of Recovery and what the Concepts are to the
Legacy of Service - namely, the core spiritual
principles of the Three Legacies. The Traditions
are a body of spiritual principles whose objective
is unity not lock-step conformity. Likewise, by
explicit statement in its own Charter (Article
12), the Conference does not function in a
governance role. The Conference Charter has 12
Articles, the 12th of which is also called "The
General Warranties of the Conference" or just
"Warrantees" for short. The 6 Warrantees in
Article 12 are a condensed version of the
Traditions to ensure that the Conference always
functions in the spirit of the Traditions.
In 1962, the General Warranties of the Conference
formed Concept 12 of the Twelve Concepts for
World Service.
The slogans are most definitely Conference-
approved. The 1952 Conference approved a list
(proposed by a special Trustees Committee on
Literature) of the then existing literature
items that were to be retained with Conference-
approval. Among those items were the Big Book
and the Long form of the Traditions (previously
released as a pamphlet in 1947). The 5 slogan
signs have been available as published AA
literature from the Grapevine for decades.
How someone wishes to view or interpret the
word "addiction" or any other term is a matter
of their individual conscience and it is
neither right nor wrong based on any notion
of Conference-approval - "Conference-approval"
has never been intended to be used in that
manner.
Literature is Conference-approved, thought is not.
Bill W was very explicit in "AA Comes of Age"
in stating: "For example, in its original "long
form," Tradition Four [sic - should be Tradition
Three] declares: 'Any two or three gathered
together for sobriety may call themselves an
A.A. group, provided that as a group they have
no other affiliation.' This means that these
two or three alcoholics could try for sobriety
in any way they liked. They could disagree with
any or all of A.A.'s principles and still call
themselves an A.A. group. But this ultra-liberty
is not so risky as it looks. In the end the
innovators would have to adopt A.A. principles
- at least some of them in order to remain sober
at all. If, on the other hand, they found something
better than A.A., or if they were able to improve
on our methods, then in all probability we would
adopt what they discovered for general use
everywhere. This sort of liberty also prevents
A.A. from becoming a frozen set of dogmatic
principles that could not be changed even when
obviously wrong. ."
Cheers
Arthur
-----Original Message-----
From: J. Lobdell
Sent: Saturday, June 27, 2009 10:15 AM
Subject: RE: "Powerless over people places things"
"There but for the Grace of God [goes old John Bradford]" is the first use I
know (1550?) of the phrase in English -- said, by a former paymaster of the
King's forces at Calais who had embezzled funds (possibly for drinking), but
been converted by Hugh Latimer and made amends and restitution, on seeing
another embezzler of the King's funds being taken away to execution. There
is no particular question of predestination, nor is the phrase peculiar to
alcoholics -- in fact it was popularized long before the word "alcoholic"
existed. It refers quite simply to the fact that we (whoever we may be)
don't recover (from any sin or sickness) by our own unaided efforts -- and
I'm not sure that should be contentious in A.A., or elsewhere.
> From: jennylaurie1@hotmail.com
> Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 07:46:39 +0000
> Subject: RE: "Powerless over people places things"
>
>
> Among the plethora of ideas discussed by our pioneers - for example,
establishing "AA" hospitals - about the only one to survive was the decision
to publish the Big Book. Early members were aware that the message could be
diluted, distorted and misrepresented when passed on orally. The slogans
which adorn the walls at so many AA meetings are not Conference-approved;
though three of them appear at the end of chapter nine in the Big Book, viz:
First Things First; Live and Let Live; Easy Does It. One slogan - There but
for the grace of God - is contentious, suggesting as it does that some
alcoholics are chosen for salvation and others condemned. Likewise, the
Serenity Prayer is not Conference-approved, though undoubtedly an
established part of our oral tradition. So, unless tested by the
Fellowship's group conscience as expressed at Conference, expressions heard
at meetings, like e.g. Keep it simple stupid, should be taken with a pinch
of salt. Some are more helpful than others; some are contrary to our
tradition, e.g. "It (addiction) is all the same illness."
>
> Laurie A.
> From: jdf10487@yahoo.com
> Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 09:36:02 -0700
> Subject: RE: "Powerless over people places things"
> AA has a rich oral tradition which includes many sayings, slogans and
common expressions.
>
> Some of these expressions can be found in the AA literature and others
can't. Regardless of that fact, these saying and slogans are as much a part
of authentic AA History as the coffee pot. AA is as AA does, and AA does
use sayings and slogans. It always has and I believe that it always will.
>
> Sincerely, Jim F.
> From: johnlawlee@yahoo.com
> Subject: RE: "Powerless over people places things"
> Date: Wednesday, June 24, 2009, 4:56 AM
>
> The topic is "powerless over people, places and things", wnich cliche is
absent from the basic literature of AA, NA and Al-Anon. The topic is not
"people, places and things." According to the Unofficial Big Book Search
Engine, the word "people" is found on 78 pages of the basic text. "People"
isn't the topic either. You won't find the cliche "powerless over people
places things" in the basic literature of AA. You won't find it in the basic
literature of NA or Al-Anon either. You won't locate the recommendation
"avoid people places and things" in the basic literature of those three
fellowships, although that nugget is heard frequently in rehabs, AA meetings
and NA meeetings. You'll hear the chanting of "keep coming back" at
virtually every AA meeting, but that's not in the basic text of AA either. I
don't believe you'll find it in the Bigger Book either [the one with the
black cover and ribbon]. Christ never said, "Keep coming back." He
> said, "Heal the sick...Freely have you received, freely give." In AA we
carry the message to those who still suffer.
> Pass it on.
> John Lee
> Pittsburgh
> From: Robert Stonebraker
> Subject: Re: "People places things"
> Date: Tuesday, June 23, 2009, 5:50 PM
>
> The inquiry comes from the previous message concerning the validity of
page
> Dr. Paul's quote from page 417.
>
> The answer:
>
> The stories in the second section of the book are not considered as the
> clear cut directions. Please read page 29: "Further on clear cut
directions
> are given showing how we recovered. These are followed by forty-two
> personal experiences. "
>
> The personal experiences are not the clear cut directions.
>
> Bob S.
> From bridgetsbuddy
> Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 9:39 AM
> Subject: Re: "People places things"
>
> What about this one? "When I am disturbed, it is because I find some
person,
> place, thing, or situation -- some fact of my life -- unacceptable to me,
> and I can find no serenity until I accept that person, place, thing, or
> situation as being exactly the way it is supposed to be at this moment."
> ("Acceptance was the Answer," BB, 4th Ed., p.417) No?
>
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++++Message 5841. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Houston S.
From: chris fuccione . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/28/2009 1:34:00 PM
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So was he the first person to use the Twelve
Steps for another program?
from: "boydpickard" wrote:
>
> Houston S. found AA in Montgomerty, Alabama in June 1944. He helped a man
named Harry, who also had a drug problem, get sober. Through this
interaction
Houston was convenced that 12 Tweleve Steps could be applied to drug
addiction
as well.
>
> So convinced that when his company transfered him to Frankfort, Kentucky,
Houston contacted Dr.Vogel of the US Public Hospital in Lexington Kentucky (
specializing in drug addiction)and Dr. Vogel allowed Houston start an
Addicts
Anonymous Meeting using a modified version of the 12 steps of AA.
>
> Houston remained a loyal supportor attending meetings nearly week until
1963
when he turned his duties over to Sterling S. another AA member.
>
> Does anyone know this story and can anyone help me track down Houston's
last
name. Some people say Houston Sewell and some say Houston Smith.
> Any help would be appreciated.
>
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++++Message 5842. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: There but for the grace of God
From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/29/2009 6:09:00 PM
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From John B (jax760), J. Lobdell, and Baileygc23
- - - -
From: "jax760" (jax760 at yahoo.com)
"It does not seem necessary to defer to the feelings of our agnostic and
atheist
newcomers to the extent of completely hiding our light under a bushel." Bill
W.
to Russ R. 1959 LTR
As he did so many times in many of his writings Bill quotes the Bible in
expressing everyday ideas. Here of course it's the Sermon on The Mount,
Matthew
5:14-16
Bill frequently disguised his religious (or spiritual if you prefer) thought
so
as to not scare away the newcomer but his views and his "biblically based"
ideas
i.e. "ancient principles" can be found throughout his published and personal
writings.
I think we can find the roots of all the slogans and substantiate them, or
cite
sources for most of them.
From the AA History Book "Pass It On"
"Bill now joined Bob and Anne in the Oxford Group practice of having morning
guidance sessions together, with Anne reading from the Bible.
"Reading… from her
chair in the corner she would softly conclude `Faith without works is dead.'
"
As Dr. Bob described it they were convinced that the answer to our problem
was
the Good Book. To some of us older ones, the parts that we found absolutely
essential were the Sermon on the Mount, the 13th Chapter of First
Corinthians
and the Book of James. The Book of James was so important, in fact, that
some
early members even suggested "The James Club" as a name for the fellowship."
–
p. 147
From the AA History Book "Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers"
"We already had the basic ideas, though not in terse and tangible form. We
got
them…as a result of our study of the Good Book. We must have had them.
Since
then we have learned from experience that they are very important in
maintaining
sobriety. We were maintaining sobriety – therefore we must have had them."
– p.
97
"Dr. Bob noted there were no 12 steps at that time and that `our stories
didn't
amount to anything to speak of,' later said they were convinced that that
the
answer to their problems was in the Good Book. `To some of us older ones the
parts that we found absolutely essential were the Sermon on the Mount, the
13th
Chapter of First Corinthians and the Book of James' he said. This was the
beginning of A.A.'s "flying blind period." They had the Bible; they had the
precepts of the Oxford Group. They also had their own instincts. They were
working, or working out, the A.A. program – the Twelve Steps – without
quite
knowing how they were doing it." – p. 96
The Biblical Roots of the Slogans are as follows"
Live and Let Live (The Golden Rule) - Matthew 7:12
"And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise."
Easy Does it (One Day at a Time) Matthew 6:34
"Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought
for
the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof."
But for the Grace of God - 1 Corinthians 15:10
"But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed
upon
me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I,
but the grace of God which was with me."
Think Think Think - Romans12:3
"For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you,
not
to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think
soberly,
according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith."
First Things First Matthew 6:33
"But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness;
and all these things shall be added unto you."
Some of these slogans are first discussed (from a history perspective) in
one of
the Earliest Akron Pamphlets, The Akron Manual circa 1940-41 which tells the
newcomer: "There is the Bible that you haven't opened for years. Get
acquainted
with it. Read it with an open mind. You will find things that will amaze
you.
You will be convinced that certain passages were written with you in mind.
Read
the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew V, VI, and VII). Read St. Paul's inspired
essay
on love (I Corinthians XIII). Read the Book of James. Read the Twenty-third
and
Ninety-first Psalms. These readings are brief but so important."
From this pamphlet:
Shortly after you leave the hospital you will be on your own. The Bible
tells us
to put "first things first." Alcohol is obviously the first thing in your
life.
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