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IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII On Jun 27, 2009, at 11:14 AM, J. Lobdell wrote in Message 5835: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/5835
>first use I know (1550?) of the phrase in English -- said, by a >former paymaster of the King's forces at Calais who had embezzled >funds (possibly for drinking), but been converted by Hugh Latimer >and made amends and restitution, on seeing another embezzler of the >King's funds being taken away to execution. There is no particular >question of predestination, nor is the phrase peculiar to alcoholics >-- in fact it was popularized long before the word "alcoholic" >existed. It refers quite simply to the fact that we (whoever we may >be) don't recover (from any sin or sickness) by our own unaided >efforts -- and I'm not sure that should be contentious in A.A., or >elsewhere. Our slogan is not the same as the quote being "But for the Grace of God," and I'm not at all sure "grace" is capitalized. Quibbling, perhaps, but it gives the meaning a different slant.
available from the New York Office, which lends a certain amount of authority to them. They originally appeared as slogans in the Grapevine in the middle '50s according to Art Sheehan. As far as any of them being contentious, I think that is entirely dependent on the eye of the beholder. Tommy H in Baton Rouge - - - - From: Jon Markle (serenitylodge at mac.com) I do agree however, that the clear implication is that God's Grace is predetermined to be available to some people but not all. (Predestination is indeed a very hotly contentious religious dogma).
understand is free and available to anyone and everyone. The only thing that makes the difference, is whether or not each of us chooses to make use of that empowering grace. Hugs for the trudge. Jon (Raleigh) 9/9/82
++++Message 5839. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Powerless over people, places, and things From: MARLO . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/28/2009 8:34:00 AM
thing,
or situation unacceptable to me" and "I must accept that person, place, thing,
or situation" means I'm powerless over it. As somebody else said, the concept
is the same, & those words are in the Book. Interestingly enough, if you go back & read that story (which is funnier than
Reader's Digest, IMHO), you'll notice that a LOT of the most frequently repeated
"cliches" come from that one story. "A new pair of glasses," my "magic magnifying mind," "acceptance was the answer"
(heck! people recommend reading that whole paragraph/page!), "my serenity is inversely proportional to my expectations" - a BUNCH of them! So I still don't think it is impossible for the use of the phrase "powerless over people, places, & things" to have originated as a paraphrase, or mis-quotation, from this story. It may not have in actual fact come from that
story, but it is certainly not beyond the realm of possibility. That's my story, & I'm stickin' to it. Marlo D. Del Valle, Texas IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5840. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Powerless over people places things
From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/29/2009 10:55:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Thank you Jared It's refreshing in a history forum to see a posting with citation and source reference rather than assertion and editorial. The following citation is from the very first chapter drafted by Bill W in preparation for the publication of the Big Book. That chapter is "There Is a Solution" (pgs 24-25):
in an individual with alcoholic tendencies, he has probably placed himself beyond human aid, and unless locked up, may die or go permanently insane. These stark and ugly facts have been confirmed by legions of alcoholics throughout history. But for the grace of God, there would have been thousands more convincing demonstrations. So many want to stop but cannot.
in 5 Grapevine issues from September-December1956 and February 1957. Four slogans are from the Big Book: "But for the Grace of God" is from the chapter "There Is A Solution" (on pg 25) as noted above.
and Let Live" are from the chapter "The Family Afterward" (on pg 135). The slogan "Think, Think, Think" is a bit of a mystery. Some say it originated in Cleveland, Ohio in the mid-1940s, however, its actual source is unknown.
at http://aa.org/subpage.cfm?page=287 ". Q: What's the history of typical AA slogans like "First Things First" and "One Day at a Time"? A. We don't have a great deal of information about the origins of AA's slogans and acronyms, but we can provide some sharing and preliminary information. Many of these slogans, as with other practices in AA, were simply passed along verbally to other members, so it is impossible to know who started using them first. It is possible that some of the slogans may have originally stemmed from a part of the Oxford Group Movement language, but it could also be that they were original with Bill and Dr. Bob and the early members. Members have always inquired as to the origins of various slogans, and it has always been difficult to narrow down; in our research, we discovered a letter written by former GSO Archivist, Frank M., dated 1989, who responded to a similar question that was posed to him. This was Frank's response,
Time' is shared by many of us. Like hand-holding, however, it's difficult to pin-point the exact 'moment.'" That is the problem we find with most of our AA slogans, unfortunately! We do know, however, that many slogans commonly heard have been around since the early days of the Fellowship. In December of 1958 Ruth Hock (non-alcoholic), who was AA's first secretary, wrote a response to a similar question concerning different slogans. In her reply Ruth wrote: "Bill [W.] and I first worked together in January 1936 when he had been sober just a little over one year and at that time 'Easy Does It,' 'Live and Let Live,' and 'First Things First,' were part of the daily conversation. They were also used in the very first drafts of the book, but probably only Bill himself could tell you where he picked them up. "As far as I'm concerned all of the above were introduced into A.A. by Bill W. himself although not original with him. "Some of these could have been used in Oxford Group meetings but there is no way for sure."
Bill W.'s biography, Pass It On, also addresses this topic:
the late 1930s: 'First Things First,' 'Easy Does It,' 'Live and Let Live.' Because these appear in the first edition of the Big Book (at the end of the chapter on 'The Family Afterward'), it's probable that the use of the slogans originated with Bill and that he brought them with him from Vermont - old saws with new teeth. ." ==================== In regard to the Traditions, they are to the Legacy of Unity what the Steps are to the Legacy of Recovery and what the Concepts are to the Legacy of Service - namely, the core spiritual principles of the Three Legacies. The Traditions are a body of spiritual principles whose objective is unity not lock-step conformity. Likewise, by explicit statement in its own Charter (Article 12), the Conference does not function in a governance role. The Conference Charter has 12 Articles, the 12th of which is also called "The General Warranties of the Conference" or just "Warrantees" for short. The 6 Warrantees in Article 12 are a condensed version of the Traditions to ensure that the Conference always functions in the spirit of the Traditions. In 1962, the General Warranties of the Conference formed Concept 12 of the Twelve Concepts for World Service.
approved. The 1952 Conference approved a list (proposed by a special Trustees Committee on Literature) of the then existing literature items that were to be retained with Conference- approval. Among those items were the Big Book and the Long form of the Traditions (previously released as a pamphlet in 1947). The 5 slogan signs have been available as published AA literature from the Grapevine for decades. How someone wishes to view or interpret the word "addiction" or any other term is a matter of their individual conscience and it is neither right nor wrong based on any notion of Conference-approval - "Conference-approval" has never been intended to be used in that manner.
in stating: "For example, in its original "long form," Tradition Four [sic - should be Tradition Three] declares: 'Any two or three gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an A.A. group, provided that as a group they have no other affiliation.' This means that these two or three alcoholics could try for sobriety in any way they liked. They could disagree with any or all of A.A.'s principles and still call themselves an A.A. group. But this ultra-liberty is not so risky as it looks. In the end the innovators would have to adopt A.A. principles - at least some of them in order to remain sober at all. If, on the other hand, they found something better than A.A., or if they were able to improve on our methods, then in all probability we would adopt what they discovered for general use everywhere. This sort of liberty also prevents A.A. from becoming a frozen set of dogmatic principles that could not be changed even when obviously wrong. ." Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: J. Lobdell Sent: Saturday, June 27, 2009 10:15 AM Subject: RE: "Powerless over people places things"
know (1550?) of the phrase in English -- said, by a former paymaster of the King's forces at Calais who had embezzled funds (possibly for drinking), but been converted by Hugh Latimer and made amends and restitution, on seeing another embezzler of the King's funds being taken away to execution. There is no particular question of predestination, nor is the phrase peculiar to alcoholics -- in fact it was popularized long before the word "alcoholic" existed. It refers quite simply to the fact that we (whoever we may be) don't recover (from any sin or sickness) by our own unaided efforts -- and I'm not sure that should be contentious in A.A., or elsewhere. > From: jennylaurie1@hotmail.com > Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 07:46:39 +0000 > Subject: RE: "Powerless over people places things" > > > Among the plethora of ideas discussed by our pioneers - for example, establishing "AA" hospitals - about the only one to survive was the decision to publish the Big Book. Early members were aware that the message could be diluted, distorted and misrepresented when passed on orally. The slogans which adorn the walls at so many AA meetings are not Conference-approved; though three of them appear at the end of chapter nine in the Big Book, viz: First Things First; Live and Let Live; Easy Does It. One slogan - There but for the grace of God - is contentious, suggesting as it does that some alcoholics are chosen for salvation and others condemned. Likewise, the Serenity Prayer is not Conference-approved, though undoubtedly an established part of our oral tradition. So, unless tested by the Fellowship's group conscience as expressed at Conference, expressions heard at meetings, like e.g. Keep it simple stupid, should be taken with a pinch of salt. Some are more helpful than others; some are contrary to our tradition, e.g. "It (addiction) is all the same illness." > > Laurie A. > From: jdf10487@yahoo.com > Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 09:36:02 -0700 > Subject: RE: "Powerless over people places things"
common expressions. > > Some of these expressions can be found in the AA literature and others can't. Regardless of that fact, these saying and slogans are as much a part of authentic AA History as the coffee pot. AA is as AA does, and AA does use sayings and slogans. It always has and I believe that it always will. > > Sincerely, Jim F. > From: johnlawlee@yahoo.com > Subject: RE: "Powerless over people places things" > Date: Wednesday, June 24, 2009, 4:56 AM > > The topic is "powerless over people, places and things", wnich cliche is absent from the basic literature of AA, NA and Al-Anon. The topic is not "people, places and things." According to the Unofficial Big Book Search Engine, the word "people" is found on 78 pages of the basic text. "People" isn't the topic either. You won't find the cliche "powerless over people places things" in the basic literature of AA. You won't find it in the basic literature of NA or Al-Anon either. You won't locate the recommendation "avoid people places and things" in the basic literature of those three fellowships, although that nugget is heard frequently in rehabs, AA meetings and NA meeetings. You'll hear the chanting of "keep coming back" at virtually every AA meeting, but that's not in the basic text of AA either. I don't believe you'll find it in the Bigger Book either [the one with the black cover and ribbon]. Christ never said, "Keep coming back." He > said, "Heal the sick...Freely have you received, freely give." In AA we carry the message to those who still suffer. > Pass it on. > John Lee > Pittsburgh
> Subject: Re: "People places things" > Date: Tuesday, June 23, 2009, 5:50 PM > > The inquiry comes from the previous message concerning the validity of page > Dr. Paul's quote from page 417. > > The answer: > > The stories in the second section of the book are not considered as the > clear cut directions. Please read page 29: "Further on clear cut directions > are given showing how we recovered. These are followed by forty-two > personal experiences. " > > The personal experiences are not the clear cut directions. > > Bob S.
> Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 9:39 AM > Subject: Re: "People places things" > > What about this one? "When I am disturbed, it is because I find some person, > place, thing, or situation -- some fact of my life -- unacceptable to me, > and I can find no serenity until I accept that person, place, thing, or > situation as being exactly the way it is supposed to be at this moment." > ("Acceptance was the Answer," BB, 4th Ed., p.417) No? >
++++Message 5841. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Houston S. From: chris fuccione . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/28/2009 1:34:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII So was he the first person to use the Twelve Steps for another program? from: "boydpickard" > > Houston S. found AA in Montgomerty, Alabama in June 1944. He helped a man named Harry, who also had a drug problem, get sober. Through this interaction Houston was convenced that 12 Tweleve Steps could be applied to drug addiction as well. > > So convinced that when his company transfered him to Frankfort, Kentucky, Houston contacted Dr.Vogel of the US Public Hospital in Lexington Kentucky ( specializing in drug addiction)and Dr. Vogel allowed Houston start an Addicts Anonymous Meeting using a modified version of the 12 steps of AA. > > Houston remained a loyal supportor attending meetings nearly week until 1963 when he turned his duties over to Sterling S. another AA member. > > Does anyone know this story and can anyone help me track down Houston's last name. Some people say Houston Sewell and some say Houston Smith. > Any help would be appreciated. >
++++Message 5842. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: There but for the grace of God From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/29/2009 6:09:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From John B (jax760), J. Lobdell, and Baileygc23 - - - - From: "jax760" "It does not seem necessary to defer to the feelings of our agnostic and atheist
newcomers to the extent of completely hiding our light under a bushel." Bill W. to Russ R. 1959 LTR As he did so many times in many of his writings Bill quotes the Bible in expressing everyday ideas. Here of course it's the Sermon on The Mount, Matthew 5:14-16
so as to not scare away the newcomer but his views and his "biblically based" ideas i.e. "ancient principles" can be found throughout his published and personal writings. I think we can find the roots of all the slogans and substantiate them, or cite
sources for most of them. From the AA History Book "Pass It On" "Bill now joined Bob and Anne in the Oxford Group practice of having morning guidance sessions together, with Anne reading from the Bible. "Reading… from her chair in the corner she would softly conclude `Faith without works is dead.' " As Dr. Bob described it they were convinced that the answer to our problem was the Good Book. To some of us older ones, the parts that we found absolutely essential were the Sermon on the Mount, the 13th Chapter of First Corinthians and the Book of James. The Book of James was so important, in fact, that some
early members even suggested "The James Club" as a name for the fellowship." – p. 147 From the AA History Book "Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers" "We already had the basic ideas, though not in terse and tangible form. We got
them…as a result of our study of the Good Book. We must have had them. Since
then we have learned from experience that they are very important in maintaining sobriety. We were maintaining sobriety – therefore we must have had them." – p.
97 "Dr. Bob noted there were no 12 steps at that time and that `our stories didn't
amount to anything to speak of,' later said they were convinced that that the
answer to their problems was in the Good Book. `To some of us older ones the parts that we found absolutely essential were the Sermon on the Mount, the 13th Chapter of First Corinthians and the Book of James' he said. This was the beginning of A.A.'s "flying blind period." They had the Bible; they had the precepts of the Oxford Group. They also had their own instincts. They were working, or working out, the A.A. program – the Twelve Steps – without quite
knowing how they were doing it." – p. 96 The Biblical Roots of the Slogans are as follows" Live and Let Live (The Golden Rule) - Matthew 7:12 "And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise." Easy Does it (One Day at a Time) Matthew 6:34 "Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof." But for the Grace of God - 1 Corinthians 15:10 "But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me." Think Think Think - Romans12:3 "For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith." First Things First Matthew 6:33 "But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you."
one of
the Earliest Akron Pamphlets, The Akron Manual circa 1940-41 which tells the newcomer: "There is the Bible that you haven't opened for years. Get acquainted with it. Read it with an open mind. You will find things that will amaze you. You will be convinced that certain passages were written with you in mind. Read the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew V, VI, and VII). Read St. Paul's inspired essay on love (I Corinthians XIII). Read the Book of James. Read the Twenty-third and Ninety-first Psalms. These readings are brief but so important." From this pamphlet: Shortly after you leave the hospital you will be on your own. The Bible tells us
to put "first things first." Alcohol is obviously the first thing in your life.
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