Aa history Lovers 2010 moderators Nancy Olson and Glenn F. Chesnut page
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this special aspect of the puzzle thoroughly. The possible future values of chemistry should not be overlooked by any of us in the presence of the proved value of psychological and philosophical regeneration. I also have a hunch that insanities, neuroses, and all other aberrations vary
largely with the passing of centuries. Alcoholism too. I do not believe people
in the main were exactly the same sort alcoholics and for the same reason in 1700 as in 1944. That is to say, I believe such conditions of the soul are "as if" epidemic - and definitely of a social causation. That is what especially interests me about AA: it represents to me the first really effective effort to deal in kind and in scale and in the right category, with alcoholism. Philip Wylie IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6884. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill W''s two books on philosophy at Towns? From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/18/2010 7:15:00 AM
to be
saying that Bill brought two books with him when he came to Towns, which would
therefore be different from any books Ebby and Shep brought with them when they
came to see him. Moreover, I'm not sure I'd describe The Little Flowers as "moral psychology" -- a term better applied to some of the OG books. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6885. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill W''s two books on philosophy at Towns? From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/18/2010 8:56:00 AM
I am assuming that the "Director" in a large Corp would refer to Bill's position at Honor Dealers whether or not the title bestowed accurately reflects any legalities.
books
.... I believe the only thing he was carrying was a bottle of beer. I think we can safely assume VRE is one of the two books Silky refers to. Regards John B P.S. Thank you! The Little Flowers is a marvelous book. - - - - FROM THE ORIGINAL MESSAGE: > >
> > Reclamation of the Alcoholic > > W.D. Silkworth > > Medical Record, April 21, 1937. > >
> > http://www.silkworth.net/silkworth/reclamation.html > >
> > Case IV (Hospital No. 1152). - A broker, who had earned as much as $25,000 a year, and had come, through alcohol, to a position where he was being supported by his wife, presented himself for treatment carrying with him two books on philosophy from which he hoped to get a new inspiration: His desire to discontinue alcohol was intense, and he certainly made every effort within his
own capabilities to do so. Following the course of treatment in which the alcohol and toxic products were eliminated and his craving counteracted, he took up moral psychology. At first, he found it difficult to rehabilitate himself financially, as his old friends had no confidence in his future conduct. Later
he was given an opportunity, and is now a director in a large corporation. He gives part of his income to help others in his former condition, and he has gathered about him a group of over fifty men, all free from their former alcoholism through the application of this method of treatment and "moral psychology." To such patients we recommend "moral psychology," and in those of our patients who have joined or initiated such groups the change has been spectacular. > >
++++Message 6886. . . . . . . . . . . . Early meeting formats, or procedures From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/21/2010 2:37:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I am interested to read/listen about the formats used, or meeting procedures, at these two places and times: 1. At Bill's home at 182 Clinton Street between 1937 - 1939 2. At Dr. Bob's home at 822 Ardmore from late 1939 till they moved to Kings school in January of 1940. Any suggestions? Thanks! Bob S., Archives Chairperson at Richmond, Indiana IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6887. . . . . . . . . . . . Carl Jung: many roads to recovery From: Jenny or Laurie Andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/21/2010 3:53:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII See Message 6883 about Philip Wylie and the "many roads to recovery" http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/6883 Wylie raises some interesting questions, e.g. about spiritual experience. CARL JUNG AND THREE ROADS TO RECOVERY: It's little remarked that in Jung's letter to Bill W. he wrote: "The only right
and legitimate way to such an experience (union with God) is, that it happens to you in reality and it can only happen to you when you walk on a path which leads
to a higher understanding. You might be led to that goal [1] by an act of grace
or [2] through a personal and honest contact with friends, or [3] through a higher education of the mind beyond the confines of mere rationalism. I see from your letter that Rowland H. has chosen the second way, which was, under the circumstances, obviously the best one." The "second way" was "a personal and honest contact with friends", or as Bill W.
wrote: "The moment 12th Step work forms a group, a discovery is made - that most
individuals cannot recover unless there is a group..." (12+12) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6888. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Early meeting formats, or procedures From: Joseph Nugent . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/21/2010 2:43:00 PM
> > I am interested to read/listen about the formats used, or meeting > procedures, at these two places and times: > > 1. At Bill's home at 182 Clinton Street between 1937 - 1939 > > 2. At Dr. Bob's home at 822 Ardmore from late 1939 till they moved to Kings school in January of 1940. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6889. . . . . . . . . . . . Carl Jung: many roads to recovery From: John Lee . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/21/2010 5:36:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I don't believe Jung's "second way" was just fellowship.Jung was writing about a
group of seekers trying to establish a personal relationship with God. That's
supposedly what Jung told Rowland--when Rowland returned to the United States,
Jung thought he should look for a group of seekers, which is what Rowland did
when he joined the Oxford Group. Jung, more than any man of science, emphasized the need for God and Divine Power. He wouldn't have recommended that Rowland rely on human power. John Lee Pittsburgh IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6890. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Carl Jung: many roads to recovery
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/22/2010 5:25:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: Jenny or Laurie Andrews Hi John, I noted your posting in this thread and agree with you up to a point. As always,
the problem is: what (or who) do we (and Jung!) mean by God? If it were the God of, e.g., one of the Protestant Fundamentalists who sometimes write books about A.A. and set up websites trying to force A.A.'s to pray to Jesus and study the New Testament in A.A. meetings -- and who claim that almost no one can get sober unless they take Jesus Christ as their personal savior in a born-again experience -- countless alcoholics would, as Bill W., said of similar fundamentalist and dogmatic approaches, "turn their head to the wall and die". You ignore Wylie's comment about Jungian understanding (see below at bottom),
that the "transcendent symbol" cannot be pinned down in a creed, and that there
are "thoroughly abstract, non-religious routes" to that transcendent immensity. To which as an agnostic Quaker I say fervently, thank God! (The finding is in the seeking ...) Abundant blessings on your journey, Laurie A. - - - - Original message #6889 from: John Lee I don't believe Jung's "second way" was just fellowship. Jung was writing about
a group of seekers trying to establish a personal relationship with God. That's
supposedly what Jung told Rowland -- when Rowland returned to the United States,
Jung thought he should look for a group of seekers, which is what Rowland did
when he joined the Oxford Group. Jung, more than any man of science, emphasized the need for God and Divine Power. He wouldn't have recommended that Rowland rely on human power. John Lee Pittsburgh - - - - FROM PHILIP WYLIE'S ARTICLE IN THE GRAPEVINE http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/6883 The Jungians, incidentally, give a different name to the "religious experience" which you discuss in AA. They arrive at that "experience" by different methods - methods which conform to their scientific psychological technique. They call the
spiritual quantum which gives rise to the experience a "transcendent symbol."
Naturally, I haven't room to describe the method here: it would take more than
this magazine - a book perhaps. But, whether you call it a religious experience or a transcendant symbol does not matter - and it may be of interest to alcoholics who are semi-knowingly engaged in protesting formal, churchly "religions" to learn that there are thoroughly abstract, non-religious routes to the same, universal, human contact with inner integrity, truth, and the "nature
of nature itself." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6891. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Early meeting formats, or procedures From: John Moore . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/22/2010 4:22:00 PM
New
York City meetings at Oxford Groups and at Bill and Lois' home. Below is part
of his talk, where he describes an OG meeting. Gene also described meeting with
other AAs including his sponsor Paul Kellogg, in a public park, sitting on benches or picnic tables, and talking about sobriety. John - - - - "When I reached AA, there were only 3 people in New York including Bill Wilson,
that had better than two years’ sobriety. Bill had four, Parkhurst had three,
and Fitzie Mayo had two. There were less than ten of us around New York. So our meetings for nearly a year, weren’t meetings. It was just gatherings, we’d get together, Bill would lead, and we’d talk back and forth to Bill. I’ll tell you how they got away from the Oxford Group, if you don’t mind. See, for the first four years, it was religion, strictly. These boys took me in, and
they talked about (an occasion) when they had made a call on a certain fellow,
and then one of them had to leave. The other one asked, “Would you *pray* for
this Brother?”, just like Methodists, Baptists, or anyone else steeped in religion (might say). Well, it happened a few of them were attending the Oxford Group in New York, including Bill, because they weren’t affiliated with a church. But some of the other boys were going to Protestant Churches, the Catholic Church, and others, two or three of them. I went to the Oxford Group with those boys; wouldn’t be over two or three of us
at a time. The ladies, wives, would go in and sit down; out the men would come,
smoke cigarettes, talk about baseball, everything. But they weren’t stressing their experience of drinking.
the
Lord’s Prayer, and “Sermon on the Mount” by Emmett Fox. We used “Sermon on the Mount” for a couple of years after we got our Big Book. That’s where they got
the idea for the formation of our Program. And the reason they didn’t bring Jesus Christ into the Program is, they wanted
it to be spiritual. Practically all religions practice the principles that we are practicing in AA. But we don’t say “Christ” in it. They wanted everyone who came in here, not be offended from a religious standpoint. Now if a person of the Jewish faith would come in, and hear Jesus Christ discussed, he wouldn’t feel comfortable, don’t you see? And they got that idea out of “Sermon on the Mount”."
This transcription of Gene's talk is online at http://www.silkworth.net/aahistory/genee_aa38.html Gene E. A.A. # 28 "The Booze Fighter" Transcribed from the Anniversary ‘Old-Timers’ Meeting South Bay Survivors Group, Redondo Beach, Calif. Approx. 1977
Fighter" would be included. But after a year, Gene got drunk and by the time he got back in the early 1940's his chance to get into the BB was lost. Gene was a wonderful, gentle giant of a man, an elder statesman in the finest sense. I knew him for about 8 years in my home group until I moved away in 1979, and Gene passed away a few years after that, he died sober and surrounded by AA friends.
++++Message 6892. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Carl Jung: many roads to recovery
From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/22/2010 4:41:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Carl Jung on the Oxford Group: Carl Jung became aware of the Oxford Group in the 1920s when Alphonse Maeder, his colleague and former assistant, became involved with the movement. Although Jung recognized that troubled patients sometimes gained a sense of security, purpose and belonging from Group involvement, in his view there was a
sacrifice in personal individuation. He therefore did not understand what attraction the group could have for someone with the psychoanalytic sophistication of Maeder. For a time Jung was respectful of Maeder's convictions, but when his relationship with Maeder deteriorated in the 1930s his attitude toward the Oxford Group also became more negative. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_Group#cite_note-Adler-70 - - - - Jung expressed this ambivalence toward the Group in a talk about the relationship of religion to mental health around 1941. "A hysterical alcoholic was cured by this Group movement, and they used him as a sort of model and sent him all round Europe, where he confessed so nicely and said that he had done wrong and how he had got cured through the Group movement. And when he had repeated his story twenty, or it may have been fifty, times, he got sick of it and took to drink again. The spiritual sensation had simply faded away. Now what are they going to do with him? They say, now he is pathological, he must go to a doctor. See, in the first stage he has been cured by Jesus, in the second by a doctor! I should and did refuse such a case. I sent the man back to these people and said, 'If you believe that Jesus has cured this man, he will do it a second time. And if he can't do it, you don't suppose that I can do it better than Jesus?' But that is just exactly what they do expect; when a man is pathological, Jesus won't help him but the doctor will." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_Group#cite_note-Carl_Jung_p._272-71 _________________________________________ In a message dated 9/21/2010 johnlawlee@yahoo.com writes: I don't believe Jung's "second way" was just fellowship. Jung was writing about
a group of seekers trying to establish a personal relationship with God. That's
supposedly what Jung told Rowland -- when Rowland returned to the United States,
Jung thought he should look for a group of seekers, which is what Rowland did
when he joined the Oxford Group. Jung, more than any man of science, emphasized the need for God and Divine Power. He wouldn't have recommended that Rowland rely on human power. John Lee Pittsburgh IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6893. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Font used for initial capitals in Big Book? From: Laurence Holbrook . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/20/2010 9:41:00 AM
(email at LaurenceHolbrook.com) I am not a font expert, but I believe the font used for the Big Book Drop Caps
is Park Avenue (BT). It is a font designed in 1933 by Robert E. Smith, available now for computers as a Bitstream font.
sample
from identifont.com - You can make your own comparison - I also included some
Wikipedia information on "Initials," of which a Drop Cap is one version: http://www.laurenceholbrook.com/AAHistoryLovers/ This page is not indexed nor referenced anywhere - It would be nice if someone would transfer that page (save the page to your hard drive, copy it or email me and I'll send you the graphics) to a web site more appropriate for AA History Lover information. Many thanks to the AA History Lovers for all the great information and support.
(email at LaurenceHolbrook.com) - - - - From: "Janis R" The 4th Edition looks like Park Avenue which was created in 1933 according to my
sources. Her grandfather was a typesetter and she is looking through his material to see if she can match the first edition to any known fonts. If she finds something that matches I will pass it on. Janis Director, Dallas Intergroup Assn. 214-887-6699
Big Book
From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/19/2010 9:31:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I spoke with Mitchell yesterday discussing the journey to Cornwall NY and Grace
S. Here is what he wrote about on the big book. We also discussed Barry and his
friendship with Lois. Mitchell talks with first hand knowledge because he was
there. He took the photos at Lois' Picnic with AA's who came in before 1950. I will try to bring these photos to the NAW in Macon, Georgia. Shakey Mike Gwirtz Phila, PA USA This article is written by nationally recognized historian and oft-quoted Alcoholics Anonymous archivist Mitchell K. The Big Book Goes to Press To most of the New York members, the book was looking too religious. Both Jim B.
and Hank P. wanted all references to God removed. Fitz M. wanted more mention of God.
members
reluctantly agreed to this offer of compromise. The members in Akron, Ohio met
around Dr. Bob's kitchen table reviewing the pages submitted to them and made
their suggestions as well. Bill knew he could not please everyone no matter how
hard he would try. There had to be some sort of a compromise. There are several stories, none confirmed, of how this compromise took place.
One story is that Ruth Hock, Bill and Hank's secretary, who was attending some
of these heated "discussions," asked about the Oxford Group idea of a non-denominational God. That is, a God, not of the Roman Catholics or Protestants, or Methodists or any other religious denomination, but God of each
individual's understanding. It is reported that at that point, Jim B. shouted
out, "That's it! God as we understand Him!" The Oxford Group literature, though Christian in content often discussed a Power
greater than oneself. Why not have a universal God? One who can be embraced by all, religious and non-religious alike. Though not too happy about any mention of God, several of the New York members reluctantly agreed to this offer of compromise. The Akron members -- who were reluctant to relinquish the Yüklə 25,47 Mb. Dostları ilə paylaş:
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