Aa history Lovers 2010 moderators Nancy Olson and Glenn F. Chesnut page
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> > Perhaps I've missed it or don't know how to search but can someone fill in the reason everyone knows from page 51 > > "This world of ours has made more material progress in the last century than in all the millenniums which went before. Almost everyone knows the reason." > ======================================= I believe Bill is referring to the lack of open mindedness when it came to the
"milleniums which went before". Because we have become more open minded, our progress as a civilization has increased exponentially --- Bill suggests the alcoholic's open mindedness is a requirement for recovery ....
From: Bent Christensen . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/14/2010 5:02:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Isn't this the reason? The spirit of modern scientific inquiry, research and invention was almost unknown. In the realm of the material, men's minds were fettered by superstition, tradition, and all sort of fixed ideas.
Valmuevej 17 6000 Kolding Tlf. 50 12 17 43 Bemærk nyt nummer! www.pass-it-on.dk
From: Angela Corelis . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/14/2010 4:08:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII An explanation: the Mexican concept of anonymity is quite different. Their meeting places have large signs on the street entrance. Also public information meetings are often held in the main plaza of a village or large city
with too many loud speakers, the panel of speakers, often identifying themselves by full name to the crowd And the meeting may be broadcast on the radio.
participate in a Public Information meeting, so being training to never say no to an AA request, I agreed. My fantasy was that the meeting would be held at the hospital or the multiuse
room of the church WRONG. It was held in the main plaza of the village, population at the time, 5,000 people. So any illusion of anynomity I had was blown away. It did work well, since about 5 people came to me afterwards asking about AA. Buses going to conventions have banners strung across the sides and front of bus
stating AA Guadalajara Grupo Libertad. In villages, I have heard AA's say, I was a Known Drunk, why would I want to be an anonymous sober person? So, a Mexican would not understand the US and rest(?) of the world's conception of anonymity.
(angelicabeads at yahoo.com) I couldn't agree more! At the big meeting on Saturday night in San Antonio, a Mexican man who didn't speak English somehow managed to bring professional (but small) filming equipment in to the stadium and filmed the entire meeting, speakers and all! I was livid. I went and found AA security, but they only told
him he had to stop filming, and didn't make him clear the film. I'm afraid of the deterioration of our tradition of anonymity in light of the internet and independent TV, etc. GSO cannot really do anything about this, first because they've not got the power, and secondly because of the tradition that states that we do not engage in controversy. I wonder how seeing their pictures in newspapers and magazines, on the internet and on TV is going to affect the ability of AA to attract newcomers, who may be very concerned with remaining unidentified. It's amazing how many old-timers don't even follow this tradition!!
Ellen
++++Message 6704. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Everyone knows the reason From: Alex H . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/14/2010 5:15:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Regarding our ideas being fettered by superstition and a lack of a scientific method, this is somewhat colored by a remake of history by those with various agendas: generally well-intentioned but skewed nevertheless. A good book to read on this subject is... "Inventing the Middle Ages : the lives, works, and ideas of the great medievalists of the twentieth century" by Norman F. Cantor. ISBN: 0688094066.
historians and reveals how our view of history is often colored by the personal experiences of historians trying to make sense of their personal lives. Alex On 7/14/2010 3:37 PM, Laurence Holbrook wrote: > > > 1) This world of ours has made more material progress in the last century > than in all the millenniums which went before. > > 2) Almost everyone knows the reason. > > [Continue on reading for the answer] > > 3) Students of ancient history tell us that the intellect of men in those > days was equal to the best of today. > > 4) Yet in ancient times, material progress was painfully slow. > > 5) The spirit of modern scientific inquiry, research and invention was > almost unknown. > > 6) In the realm of the material, men's minds were fettered by > superstition, > tradition, and all sort of fixed ideas. > > 7) Some of the contemporaries of Columbus thought a round earth > preposterous. > > 8) Others came near putting Galileo to death for his astronomical > heresies. > > 9) We asked ourselves this: Are not some of us just as biased and > unreasonable about the realm of the spirit as were the ancients about the > realm of the material? > > 10) Even in the present century, American newspapers were afraid to > print an > account of the Wright brothers' first successful flight at Kittyhawk. Had > not all efforts at flight failed before? Did not Professor Langley's > flying
> machine go to the bottom of the Potomac River? Was it not true that > the best > mathematical minds had proved man could never fly? Had not people said God > had reserved this privilege to the birds? Only thirty years later the > conquest of the air was almost an old story and airplane travel was in > full
> swing. > > --------------------- > 4 & 5 restates the problem - 6, the reason 'everyone knows' - 7 & 8 > contain > examples - 9 Bill's suggestion that we remove superstition, tradition and > all sort of fixed ideas about religion and the realm of the spirit - 10 > another example - > > Personal note - I really got this - I always thought the reason ancient > people had limited developement was because they were stupid - I never > realized that it was bias, prejudice and particularly fear of > retaliation if > you thought differently from the 'establishment' - > > Only a couple hundred years ago here in the US - the Puritans left England > because they believed differently about religion from the establishment - > damned if the Puritans didn't do that same thing - they burnt folks at the > stake that dared to admit they believed differently from the Puritans - > > I dunno 'bout y'all, but I'm not sure I'd be real excited to express my > ideas on a Higher Power to a Puritan - > > Larry > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6705. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 2010 Convention From: LES COLE . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/14/2010 5:46:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There is something more to be said about group photos. As we all know there has
always been a number of AA "supporters" who could not be called "alcoholic"..probably by their own choice. Certainly at a large convention (or any other group) we can assume that there is such a mixture of folks. In other words...
reason to assume that a face-view is that of an "alcoholic". We don't wear an "AA" badge (or shoudn't, at least). I think we may be over estimating this issue. For a rather simple example: If we only looked at a box full of baby kittens...there would be no way of knowing which were male and which might be female. I like the definition of "alcoholic" (as different from "drunk"). It is: an "alcoholic" person recognizes he/she has a problem if he/she takes that first drink, and doesn't take it. Whereas a "drunk" knows the consequences quite well, but does not take effective steps to stop drinking. That's why the "AA"
12-Steps begins by declaring, "I cannot stop drinking without some help". There is a lot of value in educating about anonymity, and in practicing the concept in our lives, but let's not assume that group pictures (even with some faces showing will imply that the person(s) is/are "alcoholics"! Bill was cognizant about the need to assert some judgement about this issue...and he set out some specifics...like: not identifying oneself as being an AA to gain someting personal, and always representing onesself only as your personal view and not for others or any group. He pointed out the special hazards in dealing with the public media. Let's not get overly defensive on this issue. Les Cole Colorado Springs, CO To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com From: sawyer7952@yahoo.com Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 21:20:33 -0700 Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: 2010 Convention Dear Arthur, I agree w/you. Are you gonna post the info. you mentioned? Guess a panoramic shot from the rear of the big room would be ok, as you couldn't see any faces??
Lynn S. alcoholic Sacramento, CA DOS=10/22/79 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6706. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr. Bob''s Sponsor From: M.J. . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/14/2010 5:49:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Just following up - it seems that without a response, this is not a topic that has an answer at this time (which in and of itself is interesting). Thanks again. On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 3:38 PM, M.J. Johnson > Here's a really basic question for which I've not found a definitive > answer: > > Did Dr. Bob consider Bill W. his sponsor? If so, is this acknowledged > in any literature written by or documented talks by Dr. Bob? If not, who > did Dr. Bob consider his sponsor? > > Many thanks. > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6707. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 2010 Convention From: George Cleveland . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/14/2010 6:03:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I try and learn from AA longtimers. There are long time circuit speakers who ALWAYS give their full name at a meeting. At the level of press, radio, film (TV and new media), they don't.
help can't find you. And again, there is that bizarre alcoholic logic: when we were drinking, most everyone knew we were alcoholics. But when we become alcoholics in recovery, we put paper covers on our Big Books so people wouldn't know we were alcoholics. Our history must be riddled with amusing, yet thoughtful, anecdotes on anonymity. Yet the tradition is pretty clear. thanks for the thread. George CLEVELAND IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6708. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Everyone knows the reason From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/14/2010 5:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII At 15:37 7/14/2010, Laurence Holbrook wrote: >Only a couple hundred years ago here in the US - the Puritans left England >because they believed differently about religion from the establishment - >damned if the Puritans didn't do that same thing - they burnt folks at the >stake that dared to admit they believed differently from the Puritans - - - - - The great fact is the Puritans on this side of the Atlantic didn't burn anyone at the stake. It seems to me that this is another example of Wilson using a story to make a point and not letting any facts get in the way of the story. It is much too glib to have much basis in fact.
>I dunno 'bout y'all, but I'm not sure I'd be real excited to express my >ideas on a Higher Power to a Puritan -
From: John Keller . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/14/2010 6:02:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I'm reminded of a comment by a dear friend, a fellow AAer and North Carolinian, who passed away several years ago. In her '80s at the time, my friend was a salty broad who'd once held political office. For many years she was very secretive about her AA membership, but one day decided to be more open about her alcoholism and her membership in the program. "My decision to give up my anonymity," she said, "was a lot like my decision to give up my virginity. When I finally did, I wondered why on earth I'd waited so damn long!" John K. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6710. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 2010 Convention From: planternva2000 . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/14/2010 7:40:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII As to anonymity, look how many of the letters posted today show the write's full
name. This site is open to anyone with an interest in AA history. Jim S.
++++Message 6711. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Everyone knows the reason From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/14/2010 5:59:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Burning witches was a universal thing in those days, or at least among the Christians. In a message dated 7/14/2010 5:00:19 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, email@LaurenceHolbrook.com writes: Only a couple hundred years ago here in the US - the Puritans left England because they believed differently about religion from the establishment - damned if the Puritans didn't do that same thing - they burnt folks at the stake that dared to admit they believed differently from the Puritans IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6712. . . . . . . . . . . . Nasty Puritans From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/14/2010 6:06:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Overview: We are not going to win many friends in the Neopagan communities with the following essay. However, we believe it to be accurate. It is a story that needs to be told. The facts are that almost all of the information that is generally accepted as truth by the Neopagan community about the "burning times" is wrong: The total number of victims was probably between 50,000 and 100,000 -- not 9 million as many believe. Although alleged witches were burned alive or hung over a five century interval -- from the 14th to the 18th century -- the vast majority were tried from 1550 to 1650. Some of the victims worshiped Pagan deities, and thus could be considered to be indirectly linked
to today's Neopagans. However most apparently did not. Some of the victims were midwives and native healers; however most were not. Most of the victims were tried executed by local, community courts, not by the Church. A substantial minority of victims -- about 25% -- were male. Many countries in Europe largely escaped the burning times: Ireland executed only four "Witches;" Russia only ten. The craze affected mostly Switzerland, Germany and France. Eastern Orthodox countries had few Witch trials. "In parts of the Orthodox East, at least, witch hunts such as those experienced in other parts of Europe were unknown...."The _Orthodox Church_ (http://www.religioustolerance.org/orthodox.htm) is strongly critical of sorcerers (among whom it includes palmists, fortune tellers and astrologers), but has not
generally seen the remedy in accusations, trials and secular penalties, but rather in confession and repentance, and exorcism if necessary...." 1 Most of the deaths seem to have taken place in Western Europe in the times and areas where Protestant - Roman Catholic conflict -- and thus social turmoil -- was at its maximum.
From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/14/2010 11:11:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This site is open to everyone. You don't have to be an AA member to post here or
participate. Shakey Mike Gwirtz Phila,PA USA Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "planternva2000" Sender: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 23:40:59 To: Reply-To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: 2010 Convention As to anonymity, look how many of the letters posted today show the write's full
name. This site is open to anyone with an interest in AA history. Jim S.
++++Message 6714. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Everyone knows the reason From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/14/2010 11:34:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Do remember that the witches condemned at Salem, Mass., were hanged, not burnt.
uprising in New York.
>Christians. > >In a message dated 7/14/2010 5:00:19 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, >email@LaurenceHolbrook.com writes: > >Only a couple hundred years ago here in the US - the Puritans left England >because they believed differently about religion from the establishment - >damned if the Puritans didn't do that same thing - they burnt folks at the >stake that dared to admit they believed differently from the Puritans
2010 Convention From: Jerry Trowbridge . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/15/2010 12:10:00 AM
media. The government licensed only a few radio stations on the standard broadcast band (AM). FM was virtually nonexistent, television was experimental, films were controlled by a few large studios. Being cited by media of the day conferred authority merely by the citation itself. Early on, there were fears that individual members would be viewed as official spokespeople which could lead to disastrous consequences.
the public at large. There isn't the stigma as when it was called dipsomania, and there's enough awareness of the AA program that a quick disclaimer such as, "I'm just one alcoholic, and I don't speak for all of AA" is understood by most.
audiences without conferring international expert status on people whose names or monikers appear there. Most every facet of life is documented daily in a sea of information. Things aren't as simple for any of us involved in media since the tremendous decentralization; we're still figuring it all out and making it up as we go along. That's as true for Rupert Murdoch who thinks the big legacy media he owns can support a paywall, as for journalists who find themselves out of a career, as for those of us producing the material to stoke the internet presences of the corporations, nonprofits and agencies that now go directly to their audiences, clients and constituencies. As an alcoholic who is also involved in new media, I'm concerned what may be the 21st century version of the problem George cites (also a primary anonymity concern for Dr. Bob): to be "so anonymous they can't find you." Let's call it: "so anonymous people can't gain a online understanding of you that they'd reasonably expect to find."
and abridged video of a typical beginners meeting (shot in such a way that faces are either not shown or are below the level of recognition due to compression artifacting), so that an AA meeting isn't entirely foreign to a newcomer. I think we need to make sure our traditions enlighten us but do not stifle us from adopting avenues that weren't open to our founders.
environment is to find a way to make sure people who seek it on the Internet, find a message that demystifies us as much as possible, but in a way true to the tradition that can't be co-opted by personalities. [This is just one alcoholic's opinion, and my apologies if it strays too far from history into interpretation and policy] On 7/14/2010 6:03 PM, George Cleveland wrote: > > I try and learn from AA longtimers. There are long time circuit > speakers who > ALWAYS give their full name at a meeting. At the level of press, > radio, film > (TV and new media), they don't. > > I was told that it's not helpful to be so anonymous that someone who needs > help can't find you. > > And again, there is that bizarre alcoholic logic: when we were drinking, > most everyone knew we were alcoholics. But when we become alcoholics in > recovery, we put paper covers on our Big Books so people wouldn't know we > were alcoholics. > > Our history must be riddled with amusing, yet thoughtful, anecdotes on > anonymity. Yet the tradition is pretty clear. > > thanks for the thread. > > George CLEVELAND >
From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/15/2010 1:28:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Jim The issue is not about what email addresses people use to identify themselves. The issue is that someone plastered photos of other AA members on the internet despite being asked at every meeting held at the International Convention to not do such a thing
links to those photographs Cheers Arthur From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of planternva2000 Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2010 6:41 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: 2010 Convention
full name. This site is open to anyone with an interest in AA history. Jim S. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6717. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 2010 Convention From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/15/2010 1:10:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII With all due respect Angela the notion that "a Mexican would not understand the
US and rest(?) of the world's conception of anonymity" comes across as a bit condescending. I live in Texas. My sponsor is from El Salvador and very active in service to the Spanish speaking members of my area (which has 5 Spanish Language Districts, the population of which is primarily from Mexico). I don't
seem to run into a notion of a "Mexican concept of anonymity." The anonymity Traditions are fairly well defined in the 12&12, AA Comes of Age, The Language of the Heart and various pamphlets all of which are available in Spanish if one elects to study them. Each AA member may elect to do whatever they wish with their own anonymity (good, bad or whatever) -- that's not the issue. The issue is that each member should not do whatever they wish to do with someone else's anonymity. Cheers Arthur From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Angela Corelis Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2010 3:08 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: 2010 Convention An explanation: the Mexican concept of anonymity is quite different. Their meeting places have large signson the street entrance. Also public information meetings are often held in the main plaza of a village or large city
with too many loud speakers, the panel of speakers, often identifying themselves by full name tothe crowd And the meeting may bebroadcast on the radio.
participate in a Public Information meeting, so being training to never say no to an AA request, I agreed. My fantasy was that the meeting would be held at the hospital or the multiuse
room of the church WRONG. It was held in the main plaza of the village, population at the time, 5,000 people. So any illusion of anynomity I had was blown away. It did work well, since about 5 people came to me afterwards asking about AA. Buses going to conventions have banners strung across the sides and front of bus
stating AA Guadalajara Grupo Libertad. In villages, I have heard AA's say, I was a Known Drunk, why would I want to be an anonymous sober person? So, a Mexican would not understand the US and rest(?) of the world's conception of anonymity.
From: Jenny or Laurie Andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/15/2010 3:00:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I've racked my brains but cannot see what on earth this has got to with the history of AA. - - - - To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com From: Baileygc23@aol.com Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 22:06:12 -0400 Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Nasty Puritans Overview: We are not going to win many friends in the Neopagan communities with the following essay. However, we believe it to be accurate. It is a story that needs to be told. The facts are that almost all of the information that is generally accepted as truth by the Neopagan community about the "burning times" is wrong: The total number of victims was probably between 50,000 and 100,000 -- not 9 million as many believe. Although alleged witches were burned alive or hung over a five century interval -- from the 14th to the 18th century -- the vast majority were tried from 1550 to 1650. Some of the victims worshiped Pagan deities, and thus could be considered to be indirectly linked
to today's Neopagans. However most apparently did not. Some of the victims were midwives and native healers; however most were not. Most of the victims were tried executed by local, community courts, not by the Church. A substantial minority of victims -- about 25% -- were male. Many countries in Europe largely escaped the burning times: Ireland executed only four "Witches;" Russia only ten. The craze affected mostly Switzerland, Germany and France. Eastern Orthodox countries had few Witch trials. "In parts of the Orthodox East, at least, witch hunts such as those experienced in other parts of Europe were unknown...."The _Orthodox Church_ (http://www.religioustolerance.org/orthodox.htm) is strongly critical of sorcerers (among whom it includes palmists, fortune tellers and astrologers), but has not
generally seen the remedy in accusations, trials and secular penalties, but rather in confession and repentance, and exorcism if necessary...." 1 Most of the deaths seem to have taken place in Western Europe in the times and areas where Protestant - Roman Catholic conflict -- and thus social turmoil -- was at its maximum.
From: Alex H . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/15/2010 1:36:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII On 7/14/2010 8:59 PM, Baileygc23@aol.com wrote: > > Burning witches was a universal thing in those days, or at least among > the > Christians. >
And men were hung as well as women. Check this link: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_witches_were_killed_during_the_salem_witc h_hu\
Answer: 14 women and 5 men, hung by the neck. 1 man crushed. In history there are many things that "everyone knows" today which just ain't true. That is why I mention the book by Cantor on "inventing" history. We tend to romanticize our modern age and look at our modern ways as natural and obvious. But in fact we are so caught up in our modern way of thinking we have trouble divorcing ourselves from it enough to ask, "Why would this seem like a good idea to our ancestors at that time?" There is an answer to that question that does NOT involve, "Because they were idiots." We must use care not to exploit incidents of the past, taking them out of their past context to make points about the present day. Those who must come after us may be left with a distorted view of history when we do.
in mind that I am no kind of Christian whatsoever. Alex IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6720. . . . . . . . . . . . Re Discussion on Anonymity From: emmspeter . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/15/2010 5:46:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dr Bob commented on anonymity as follows: "Since our Tradition on Anonymity designates the exact level where the line should be held, it must be obvious to everyone who can read and understand the English language that to maintain anonymity at any other level is definitely a violation of this Tradition. The A.A. who hides his identity from his fellow A.A. by using only a given name violates the Tradition just as much as the A.A.
who permits his name to appear in the press in connection with matters pertaining to A.A.. The former is maintaining his anonymity BELOW the level of press, radio and films-whereas the Trdition states that we should maintain our anonymity AT the level of press, radio and films." Grapevine. February, 1969. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6721. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Everyone knows the reason From: Jenny or Laurie Andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/15/2010 7:52:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Puritans certainly hanged those who did not agree with them. For example, four
Quakers were executed by Puritans on Boston Common; there's a memorial to one of
them - Mary Dyer. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6722. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Everyone knows the reason From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/15/2010 4:30:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "There is no dogma." Bill W IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6723. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 2010 Convention From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/15/2010 4:47:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In the strict sense, the conventions are not considered meetings, as they do charge fees. I think this point is brought out to those who would like to attend the conventions without paying. It is more like the history lovers as far as identifying ourselves. So taking photos at the conventions may be OK, but don't do it if you are at a separate local meeting where the convention is being held. But, of course, there is no dogma.
From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/15/2010 4:21:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII They burned them at the stake, at first, because they were accused by young girls of being witches. Like it says, people burned others that learned to use herbal medicines that seemed to produce miracles. A Pont is brought up below that we should watch out for in AA. As Bill W points out in the first tradition, certainly there is none that more seriously guards the individuals right to think, talk, and act as he wishes.
The danger in AA is stealing the new comers minds and making them confirm to our standards, which are constantly changing and only seem static for a brief time.
From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/15/2010 8:53:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I may be a little hazy on my history, but I don't recall that the Puritans (a group including a reforming faction in the Church of England as well as Independents) ever burned anyone at the stake on either side of the Atlantic, though some Puritans were burned at the stake in the reign of Mary Tudor (1553-1558). Fwiw, members of this listserv may be interested to know that the first recorded use of the phrase (in English), "there but for the Grace of God..." was by John Bradford (a Puritan member of the Church of England) when he
saw miscreants being taken to execution ca 1551 for crimes he had admitted to and for which he had escaped punishment after beginning to live a "Godly, righteous, and sober life" after being converted from his dissolute (and embezzling) ways by the preaching of Hugh Latimer -- who was indeed burned at the stake by Mary Tudor in (I think) 1554. "There but for the Grace of God goes old John Bradford." And if Bill W. adapted "history" to his purposes on this, how much more in his discussion of the Washingtonians and Abolition. In fact, the original six Washingtonians were part of the Abolitionist community of Baltimore (one of the community's leaders being Alderman John Frederick Hoss (a distinguished architect btw), the original Secretary, was he not, of the WTSB?) -- but Bill was looking toward his 1940s/ 1950s contemporary problem of segregation in AA, using the Washingtonians as an exemplar. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6726. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Everyone knows the reason From: John Lee . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/15/2010 12:53:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII No witches were burned in Salem. Nineteen accused witches were hung. One accused
warlock was pressed to death by stones. At least four accused witches died in jail. Reminds me of the boy who asked the National Park ranger why so many battles were fought at National Parks. John Lee Pittsburgh IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6727. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Nasty Puritans From: Chuck Parkhurst . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/15/2010 2:23:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII How is this AA history? -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Baileygc23@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2010 7:06 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Nasty Puritans Overview: We are not going to win many friends in the Neopagan communities with the following essay. However, we believe it to be accurate. It is a story that needs to be told. The facts are that almost all of the information that is generally accepted as truth by the Neopagan community about the "burning times" is wrong: The total number of victims was probably between 50,000 and 100,000 -- not 9 million as many believe. Although alleged witches were burned alive or hung over a five century interval -- from the 14th to the 18th century -- the vast majority were tried from 1550 to 1650. Some of the victims worshiped Pagan deities, and thus could be considered to be indirectly linked
to today's Neopagans. However most apparently did not. Some of the victims were midwives and native healers; however most were not. Most of the victims were tried executed by local, community courts, not by the Church. A substantial minority of victims -- about 25% -- were male. Many countries in Europe largely escaped the burning times: Ireland executed only four "Witches;" Russia only ten. The craze affected mostly Switzerland, Germany and France. Eastern Orthodox countries had few Witch trials. "In
parts of the Orthodox East, at least, witch hunts such as those experienced in other parts of Europe were unknown...."The _Orthodox Church_ (http://www.religioustolerance.org/orthodox.htm) is strongly critical of sorcerers (among whom it includes palmists, fortune tellers and astrologers), but has not
generally seen the remedy in accusations, trials and secular penalties, but rather in confession and repentance, and exorcism if necessary...." 1 Most of the deaths seem to have taken place in Western Europe in the times and areas where Protestant - Roman Catholic conflict -- and thus social turmoil -- was at its maximum. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6728. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Everyone knows the reason From: CBBB164@AOL.COM . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/15/2010 9:39:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII What the hell does this have to do with AA History? cliff In a message dated 7/15/2010 12:31:36 P.M. Central Daylight Time, jennylaurie1@hotmail.com writes: Puritans certainly hanged those who did not agree with them. For example, four Quakers were executed by Puritans on Boston Common; there's a memorial to one of them - Mary Dyer.
From: john wikelius . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/15/2010 1:52:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Please advise how this applies to alcoholism ________________________________ From: Alex H To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, July 14, 2010 4:15:57 PM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Everyone knows the reason
scientific method, this is somewhat colored by a remake of history by those with various agendas: generally well-intentioned but skewed nevertheless. A good book to read on this subject is... "Inventing the Middle Ages : the lives, works, and ideas of the great medievalists of the twentieth century" by Norman F. Cantor. ISBN: 0688094066.
historians and reveals how our view of history is often colored by the personal experiences of historians trying to make sense of their personal lives. Alex IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6730. . . . . . . . . . . . Re Discussion on Anonymity From: John Lee . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/15/2010 1:46:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII That's a second-hand quote of Doctor Bob's. . It's Warren C. of Akron, quoting
Doctor Bob on anonymity. The same quote can be found near the middle of Doctor
Bob and the Good Oldtimers. Daily Reflections has the same careless citation style, often failing to indicate the original source of quotes. Nevertheless, it's a great idea. We shouldn't be so anonymous that drunks can't find us. John Lee Pittsburgh IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6731. . . . . . . . . . . . International convention attendance From: Donald Mansell . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/15/2010 2:33:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does anyone know, or can tell me where to look to find out the number of people at the convention in San Antonio? Don Mansell Mission Viejo,CA 949 215-0201 949 413-8995 cell IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6732. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr. Bob''s Sponsor From: Gregory Harris . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/15/2010 7:39:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII BILL W. WAS DR. BOB'S SPONSOR M.J., Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers p. 277: < Yüklə 25,47 Mb. Dostları ilə paylaş:
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