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Where does the concept of powerlessness over "people, places and things" come from? Hugs for the trudge. Jon (Raleigh) 9/9/82
Williams)
permanent." (M.McLaughlin) "You know, I occasionally watch those preachers on the Christian TV stations. I always think to myself: How can I believe your theology when I can't believe your hair?" (Patricia Clarkson)
From: Sally Brown . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/22/2009 3:08:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Has anyone checked the Al-Anon archives? Al-Anon is where I first heard "can't
control people, places, and things" over 30 years ago, and where it's common in this area. I was somewhat surprised in fairly recent years to hear it suddenly being used in our local AA meetings. I just figured it was borrowed from Al-Anon. A fairly cursory look through Al-Anon's Big Book, How Al-Anon Works,
and their meditation book, One Day At a Time, however, was not definitive. Maybe someone on AAHistoryLovers is knowledgeable about our sister organization's archives. Rev Sally Brown coauthor with David R Brown:
Board Certified Clinical Chaplain A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann United Church of Christ The First Lady of Alcoholics Anonymous 1470 Sand Hill Rd, 309 www.sallyanddavidbrown.com Palo Alto, CA 94304 Phone/Fax: 650 325 5258
From: allan_gengler . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/22/2009 3:45:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Even though SPONSORSHIP is not mentioned in the book Alcoholics Anonymous (The
Big Book) I would suggest that sponsorship was the rule, from the beginning, and
not something added later. Bill called Ebby his sponsor until death, even though Ebby slipped a few times.
But the chain of sponsorship starts with Rowland Hazard, who sponsored Shep Cornell and Cebra Graves, who sponsored Ebby, who sponsored Bill, who sponsored Bob who, together, sponsored Bill D., etc. In "Dr. Bob and the Good Old Timers," it's clear that NO ONE just sauntered in off the streets and decided to join AA. Instead they were sponsored into the group FROM a hospital and wouldn't even attend a meeting unless they went through Dr. Bob's Upper Room treatment where they "made a surrender," often a key element missing from modern AA. Also in that book it's described how the group got together and pooled their money to bus a guy in who "supposedly" was the first to get sober on JUST THE BOOK. When the bus arrived and a man, matching his description, didn't get off the bus, the group asked the bus driver. They were told of a guy under the seat drunk on his but. The group of sober drunks, of course, helped the drunk off and began to sponsor him. I always thought that was interesting and have often wondered if it was truly
possible to get sober ON THE BOOK ALONE. Even if you did, you would need to take
the advice in A Vision For You and seek out drunks to form a fellowship, thus
becoming a sponsor. I think the real question is when did sponsorship become optional and how sober
drunks stopped seeking to sponsor and waited for someone to ask them. Or even
the notion of being told "you must get a sponsor," when did that start. Luckily
and man decided to be my sponsor so I never got to make that misguided decision
in the beginning. --Al --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Charlie C > > I have been revisiting the "Little Red Book," a title discussed here at times, and was struck by the way it recommends doing one's 5th Step with a non-AA, e.g. a clergyman, doctor... In discussing the 8th Step, it mentions that one may want to refer to "older members" when unsure of how to proceed with amends. In neither place is a sponsor mentioned. > > My understanding is that the Little Red Book represents AA practice of the 1940s, in particular that developed by Dr. Bob. Is this correct? > > Most of all though, I am curious: when did sponsorship as we know it today become the norm? When did the tradition, suggested in the Big Book, of discussing one's 5th Step with an outsider become the exception, and using one's sponsor the rule? Are there any interviews with old timers or other records documenting this shift? Thanks, I learn so much from this group! > > Charlie C. > IM = route20guy >
++++Message 5801. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: "People places things" From: Carole Seddon . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/22/2009 5:36:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII It is part of Al Anon for their first step, I believe. Carole S From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of johnlawlee@yahoo.com Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 10:20 AM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] "People places things" The cliche "people, places and things" comes from the Basic Text of Narcotics Anonymous, specifically page 15 of the Sixth Edition. It's not found in the AA literature, and it is contradictory to the AA message. The NA Basic Text converts the three pertinent ideas of the BIg Book to "three disturbing realizations." The
third "disturbing realization" is , "we can no longer blame people, places and
things for our addiction." The treatment industry has gotten ahold of the NA language and converted it to a claim that "we are [supposedly] powerless over people, places and things"
or even worse, that "we should avoid people, places and things." The "people places things" cliche is absent from the basic literature of AA; more importantly, the cliche is contradictory to the AA message. Page 102
of the Big Book assures us, "...any scheme...which proposes to shield the sick
man from temptation is doomed...he usually winds up with a bigger explosion..." The Big Book also indicates that we don't stay powerless over people. Page 132
of the AA basic text promises, "We have recovered, and been given the power to help others." Nothing in the basic literature of AA says we're powerless. The FIrst Step doesn't say we're powerless. It's in the past tense, The FIrst Step says that we WERE powerless, that we USED TO BE powerless [before taking all 12 Steps]. The Big Book further indicates that we don't stay powerless over people. Page 132 of the Big Book promises, "we have recovered and been the power to help others." To claim that "we stay powerless" , or that "we'll always be powerless" is the exact opposite of the AA message. love+service John Lee
Pittsburgh--- On Sun, 6/21/09, Jon Markle From: Jon Markle Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] "People places things" To: "AAHistoryLovers"
Date: Sunday, June 21, 2009, 9:45 PM Where does the concept of powerlessness over "people, places and things" come from? Hugs for the trudge. Jon (Raleigh) 9/9/82
Williams)
permanent." (M.McLaughlin) "You know, I occasionally watch those preachers on the Christian TV stations. I always think to myself: How can I believe your theology when I can't believe your hair?" (Patricia Clarkson)
From: doci333 . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/22/2009 6:21:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi All, I heard from the Joe and Charlie Tapes, mention "Wino Joe's" list of being an alcoholic. Joe mentioned only 2 or three from this humorous list. Anyone have the list. AA Love and Hugs, Dave G.
Illinois IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5803. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Early AA meeting formats From: tomper87 . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/22/2009 6:46:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The committee considered the request to develop a second volume of Daily Reflections and took no action. "Did the General Service Conference approve the development of a second "Daily Reflections" this year? That reading will eventually be added to the pre-discussion mix."
From: John Barton . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/22/2009 10:34:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Bill wrote two chapters of the book to "shop around" and see if there would be interest among publishers. They were Chapter 1 "There is a Solution: and Chapter 2 "Bill's Story" There were two versions of Bill's Story prior to the version that went into the
original manuscript. The second version which is quite similar to the final version can be found on the web pages of Area 44 archives. This is a pictorial version that was produced by the Big Book Study Group of South Orange, New Jersey.
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Big Book writing time line To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, June 22, 2009, 12:03 PM I am a member of the primary Purpose group in Lake Villa IL. We would like to know if Bill Wilson wrote "Bills Story" after the first draft of the book or before? Gratefully, Bill L Antioch, IL [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5805. . . . . . . . . . . . AA ''not in breach of law'' on minors
From: Fiona Dodd . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/23/2009 1:17:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII AA 'not in breach of law' on minors CARL O'BRIEN Social Affairs Correspondent Tue, Jun 23, 2009 GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS have moved to ease fears that the Alcoholics Anonymous organisation is in breach of child protection law by allowing under-18s to attend its meetings.
meetings were not suitable locations for teenagers on foot of child protection legislation and the Children First guidelines.
young as 14 and 15 regularly turn up at meetings. In correspondence with the Department of Health, officials from AA appealed for laws or guidelines to be relaxed to allow minors to be admitted. "Alcoholics Anonymous groups throughout Ireland do not wish to turn these minors away. Surely some exception could be made for an organisation such as the AA," it said. "Maybe there is a need to amend legislation, or for a special order to allow minors to attend meetings to be granted." Following a parliamentary question by Ennis-based Fine Gael TD Joe Carey, officials from the Department of Health met with the AA to discuss the issue and concluded they were not operating in breach of any law in this area.
yesterday, while the AA typically avoids commenting on issues in the public domain.
or training of staff was mandatory, according to informed sources. However, the Children First guidelines on child protection are not on a statutory footing, while much Garda vetting outside of the formal childcare area takes place on a voluntary basis.
of rising concern over alcohol abuse by teenagers. Recent research found that Irish teenagers aged 15 to 17 are the fifth highest drinkers out of 35 countries surveyed in Europe. A report by the HSE last year found that chronic alcohol conditions had increased among young adults. The Alcohol-Related Harm in Ireland report by Dr Ann Hope for the HSE's alcohol implementation group, also pointed out that treatment centres were recording many new cases, particularly of younger people who were being treated for problem alcohol use for the first time.
cause memory loss, according to health experts, while hospital consultants say they are seeing a dramatic increase in the number of liver damage cases among young people.
They are four times more likely to develop alcohol dependency than those who wait until 21, seven times more likely to be in a car crash and 11 times more likely to suffer injuries. C 2009 The Irish Times [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5806. . . . . . . . . . . . Big Book Page 100 to do with sponsorship From: John R Reid . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/23/2009 3:19:00 AM
person
----- Original Message ----- From: allan_gengler To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 5:45 AM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: History of sponsorship
(The
Big Book) I would suggest that sponsorship was the rule, from the beginning, and
not something added later. Bill called Ebby his sponsor until death, even though Ebby slipped a few times. But the chain of sponsorship starts with Rowland Hazard, who sponsored Shep Cornell and Cebra Graves, who sponsored Ebby, who sponsored Bill, who sponsored Bob who, together, sponsored Bill D., etc.
in off the streets and decided to join AA. Instead they were sponsored into the group FROM a hospital and wouldn't even attend a meeting unless they went through Dr. Bob's Upper Room treatment where they "made a surrender," often a key element missing from modern AA. Also in that book it's described how the group got together and pooled their money to bus a guy in who "supposedly" was the first to get sober on JUST THE BOOK. When the bus arrived and a man, matching his description, didn't get off the bus, the group asked the bus driver. They were told of a guy under the seat drunk on his but. The group of sober drunks, of course, helped the drunk off and began to sponsor him. I always thought that was interesting and have often wondered if it was truly
possible to get sober ON THE BOOK ALONE. Even if you did, you would need to take
the advice in A Vision For You and seek out drunks to form a fellowship, thus
becoming a sponsor. I think the real question is when did sponsorship become optional and how sober drunks stopped seeking to sponsor and waited for someone to ask them. Or even the notion of being told "you must get a sponsor," when did that start. Luckily and man decided to be my sponsor so I never got to make that misguided decision in the beginning.
> > I have been revisiting the "Little Red Book," a title discussed here at times, and was struck by the way it recommends doing one's 5th Step with a non-AA, e.g. a clergyman, doctor... In discussing the 8th Step, it mentions that one may want to refer to "older members" when unsure of how to proceed with amends. In neither place is a sponsor mentioned. > > My understanding is that the Little Red Book represents AA practice of the 1940s, in particular that developed by Dr. Bob. Is this correct? > > Most of all though, I am curious: when did sponsorship as we know it today become the norm? When did the tradition, suggested in the Big Book, of discussing one's 5th Step with an outsider become the exception, and using one's sponsor the rule? Are there any interviews with old timers or other records documenting this shift? Thanks, I learn so much from this group! > > Charlie C. > IM = route20guy >
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5807. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: History of sponsorship From: John R Reid . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/23/2009 3:17:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Please refer to 100 ----- Original Message ----- From: allan_gengler To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 5:45 AM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: History of sponsorship Even though SPONSORSHIP is not mentioned in the book Alcoholics Anonymous (The
Big Book) I would suggest that sponsorship was the rule, from the beginning, and
not something added later. Bill called Ebby his sponsor until death, even though Ebby slipped a few times. But the chain of sponsorship starts with Rowland Hazard, who sponsored Shep Cornell and Cebra Graves, who sponsored Ebby, who sponsored Bill, who sponsored Bob who, together, sponsored Bill D., etc.
in off the streets and decided to join AA. Instead they were sponsored into the group FROM a hospital and wouldn't even attend a meeting unless they went through Dr. Bob's Upper Room treatment where they "made a surrender," often a key element missing from modern AA. Also in that book it's described how the group got together and pooled their money to bus a guy in who "supposedly" was the first to get sober on JUST THE BOOK. When the bus arrived and a man, matching his description, didn't get off the bus, the group asked the bus driver. They were told of a guy under the seat drunk on his but. The group of sober drunks, of course, helped the drunk off and began to sponsor him. I always thought that was interesting and have often wondered if it was truly
possible to get sober ON THE BOOK ALONE. Even if you did, you would need to take
the advice in A Vision For You and seek out drunks to form a fellowship, thus
becoming a sponsor. I think the real question is when did sponsorship become optional and how sober drunks stopped seeking to sponsor and waited for someone to ask them. Or even the notion of being told "you must get a sponsor," when did that start. Luckily and man decided to be my sponsor so I never got to make that misguided decision in the beginning.
> > I have been revisiting the "Little Red Book," a title discussed here at times, and was struck by the way it recommends doing one's 5th Step with a non-AA, e.g. a clergyman, doctor... In discussing the 8th Step, it mentions that one may want to refer to "older members" when unsure of how to proceed with amends. In neither place is a sponsor mentioned. > > My understanding is that the Little Red Book represents AA practice of the 1940s, in particular that developed by Dr. Bob. Is this correct? > > Most of all though, I am curious: when did sponsorship as we know it today become the norm? When did the tradition, suggested in the Big Book, of discussing one's 5th Step with an outsider become the exception, and using one's sponsor the rule? Are there any interviews with old timers or other records documenting this shift? Thanks, I learn so much from this group! > > Charlie C. > IM = route20guy >
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5808. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "People places things" From: Jon Markle . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/23/2009 2:11:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I don't want to debate this here. (I have, obiously a different experience I just want to find out where or how it got into the rooms of AA. It's not in the Big Book. I don't think it's in any of AA's other literature or textbooks, either, but I can't say that with complete Yüklə 11,49 Mb. Dostları ilə paylaş:
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