Aa history Lovers 2010 moderators Nancy Olson and Glenn F. Chesnut page
Yüklə 25,47 Mb.
|
|
> > - - - - > > From: John Barton > (jax760 at yahoo.com) > > Fellow History Lovers, > > My intent is not to bring controversy, but I believe if we carefully review the facts on this question we will conclude that this event never occurred as described in Bill's Story. > > Below is the comparison between the original manuscript and the first printing, first edition big book of that portion of Bill's story that we are discussing. We can easily see that sometime prior to the publication of this first printing on April 10, 1939 but after the printing of the multilith manuscript in early1939 (produced for comments) that the following four paragraphs were added to Bill's Story: > > Despite the living example of my friend there remained in me the vestiges of my old prejudice. The word God still aroused a certain antipathy. When the thought was expressed that there might be a God personal to me this feeling was
intensified. I didn't like the idea. I could go for such conceptions as Creative
Intelligence, Universal Mind or Spirit of Nature but I resisted the thought of a
Czar of the Heavens, however loving His sway might be. I have since talked with
scores of men who felt the same way. > > My friend suggested what then seemed a novel idea. He said, "Why don't you choose your own conception of God?" > > That statement hit me hard. It melted the icy intellectual mountain in whose shadow I had lived and shivered many years. I stood in the sunlight at last. > > It was only a matter of being willing to believe in a power greater than myself. Nothing more was required of me to make my beginning. I saw that growth
could start from that point. Upon a foundation of complete willingness I might
build what I saw in my friend. Would I have it? Of course I would! > > I draw your attention to the use of italics in the second and fourth paragraphs. Bill and or the editors obviously wished to place emphasis on the
importance of Ebby's advice as well as the far reaching conclusion he (Bill) reached as the result of his hearing and considering this proposal. In all of Bill's Story the only other occasion of adding emphasis is when he documents his profound reaction to Ebby's phone call and his having stopped drinking: "He was sober"
> > The use of italics is obviously meant to indicate the absolute significance of these statements and events. They now become the central theme of Bill's story, the how and why, the coup de grace, the moral of the story, the punch line, the chorus, the crescendo. It would certainly be impossible to tell the story without them would it not? If these things, (icy mountains melting, finally standing in the sunlight i.e. "psychic change") had actually happened to you could you possibly re-tell your story without them? Of course not! > > It seems to me the whole point of telling the story would now be to reveal what Ebby said and its profound effect on Bill, initiating the process, (that
was completed in Towns), the "psychic change" (I stood in the Sunlight at last).
For my thinking, the reason these paragraphs are not contained in the earlier
version of Bill's story is because it probably never happened as written. Had it
truly occurred it would have to have been included in the earlier version (original manuscript). You wouldn't report the story without its most profound "truth"!
> > Of course Ebby would have come carrying the non-denominational Christian message; (surrender to Jesus Christ) what other message did the Oxford Groupers
carry? Lois may have provided us the answer for the "message change" in Lois Remembers p.113 > > In a AAHL post # 4409 Bill Schaberg talks about the four inserted paragraphs that appear written by hand in the printers copy. It seems there were no notations in the manuscript to indicate the source or reason for the revision. Dr. James Wainwright Howard from Montclair, New Jersey (see AAHL post # 6026)
may have been the culprit. As you know he suggested dozens of edits to soften
the book and make it more suggestive (let him choose his own concept could have
been his suggestion). Or it may have been needed to support the change "God as you understand him" as made first to step three and then later again to step eleven. The "committee" (Hank, Bill, Fitz, Ruth, Herb and possibly others) may
have thought this change to the story would tie up the "loose ends" into one neat, credible package. By the way, in the tape recordings I have heard of Bill telling "the bed time story" I don't recall him ever saying that Ebby said to him "Why don't you choose your own concept. of God" That's not to say such doesn't exist but this merits a further look. Although Bill wrote it (or approved its inclusion if written by Hank or Ruth) for the big book he may have had trouble repeating that which wasn't true when telling his story. Quite "revealing" in Bill's autobiography (Bill W. My First Forty Years) there is no mention of it. I also seen to remember Mel B. saying Ebby could never recall the conversation in Bill's Kitchen other then they argued a bit over religion. > > God Bless, > John Barton > > P.S. I remember feeling a bit down when this first came to light in my mind but recalled how many have been helped by this statement, so I am not concerned about its historical accuracy. I believe its inclusion in the story was Providence. > > - - - - > > From: Jeff Bruce > (aliasjb at gmail.com) > > Seems to me that I have read about earlier manifestations of choosing a God of your own understanding, but I don't remember where. Certainly it was not Oxford Group orthodoxy. OG was distinctly Christian, and the preacher in New York where Bill attended (Sam Shoemaker) was an Anglican in good standing. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6932. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Mark Whalon From: Jeffrey Davis . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/6/2010 5:06:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Here is a link to a site that has the Mark Whalon article in Life magazine with
all the photos: http://books.google.com/books?id=mE4EAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA94&lpg=PA94&dq=life+magaz ine+\
i=MO\
v=on\
Or if this link doesn't work, just Google "life magazine Mark Whalon" and you
will find it. Jeff IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6933. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Big Book royalties to others than Bill or Lois Wilson From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/7/2010 12:06:00 AM
> Robertson, to be published by William Morrow in April 1988: > >At the time of his death, early in 1971, Bill Wilson was earning >about $65,000 a year in royalties from the Big Book and three other >books he wrote for A.A. Last year, his widow, Lois, received >$912,000 in royalties. Under the terms of the agreement Bill >concluded with A.A. headquarters in 1963, she was allocated 13.5 per >cent of Wilson's royalties. Another 1.5 percent went to his last >mistress, who died a few years after Bill. >
15%
of the book sales, however they figure that. 15% of the profits or whatever formula was agreed upon. Upon his death, Lois received Bill's portion that wasn't going to Helen Wynn. 13.5 is 90% of 15. If she was receiving "13.5 per cent of Wilson's royalties," and Wynn 1.5%, who was getting the other 85%?
income from the books and Helen 10%. I quote Francis Hartigan's book, p. 193, "In 1963, though, prompted by his worsening emphysema, Bill and A.A. executed a new royalty agreement that called for Helen to receive 10% of his book royalties, and Lois 90% after his death."
Cayce)
From: kodom2545 . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/6/2010 10:25:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I was reading a biography of the American psychic Edgar Cayce (American Prophet
by Sidney Kirkpatrick) and I came accross a couple of familiar names who were
considered amoung his best friends. Can anyone help me obtain information on Lucille or her husband Dave's relationship with Bill Wilson. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucille_Kahn Also, in Kirkpatrick's book Mr. Cayce was said to have given a reading for Frank
Sieberling of Akron, Ohio, the founder of Goodyear. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Seiberling God Bless, Kyle IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6935. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dave and Lucille Kahn (and Edgar Cayce)
From: George Cleveland . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/7/2010 5:38:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have been intrigued by the possibility of a connection with Edgar Cayce and Bill Wilson. It seems unlikely that Bill would not have at least sought a reading. All Cayce readings are well documented but are all numbered. So from their archives I think it would be difficult to ascertain which reading may have been Bill's.
here: http://www.edgarcayce.org/are/holistic_health/data/pralco3.html Curiouser and curiouser. George Cleveland On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 10:25 PM, kodom2545 > > > I was reading a biography of the American psychic Edgar Cayce (American > Prophet by Sidney Kirkpatrick) and I came accross a couple of familiar names
> who were considered amoung his best friends. > > Can anyone help me obtain information on Lucille or her husband Dave's > relationship with Bill Wilson. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucille_Kahn > > Also, in Kirkpatrick's book Mr. Cayce was said to have given a reading for > Frank Sieberling of Akron, Ohio, the founder of Goodyear. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Seiberling > > God Bless, > > Kyle
++++Message 6936. . . . . . . . . . . . Sister Ignatia''s grave From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/6/2010 6:34:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Calvary Cemetery Search Results Della Gavin 1889-1966 http://www.bernieworld.net/records.asp?ID=977 Sister M. Ignatia - Professed 1916 Full Name: Della Gavin Born: 1889 Died: 4/1/1966 Buried: 4/5/1966 Burial Location: Section: 21A Row: D Lot: THIS WEBSITE HAS A PHOTO OF THE GRAVE Obituary: Sister M. Ignatia, C.S.A. (Della Gavin), passed away Apr. 1, 1966. Mount Augustine, 5232 Broadview Rd., West Richfield, sister of Patrick Gavin. Friends may call at Mount Augustine Monday From 2-5, 7-9 P. M. Solemn Requiem Mass will be offered in St. John Cathedral, Cleveland, O., Tuesday, Apr. 5, at 10 A. M. Interment Calvary Cemetery, McGorray services. Please omit flowers. Calvary Cemetery (216) 641-7575 10000 Miles Ave, Cleveland, Ohio 44101 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6937. . . . . . . . . . . . Fr. Ralph Pfau grave From: nuevenueve@ymail.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/9/2010 12:43:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Group: Talking about graves, Could somebody provide a picture of Fr. Pfau's grave?, Where is it located? What does his epitaph say? As always Thnx. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6938. . . . . . . . . . . . Make amends? or make an amends? New York Times article From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/9/2010 3:56:00 PM
whether
the word amends is singular or plural: On Language - "Making an Amends" - NYTimes dot com http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/10/magazine/10onlanguage.html?_r=1 Shakey Mike Gwirtz Phila, PA USA ============================================= On Language 'MAKING AN AMENDS' By Ben Zimmer Published: October 8, 2010 The New York Times Magazine Meg e-mails: "I am a member of a 12-step program in which the eighth and ninth
steps refer to 'making amends.' When people share their experience with these
steps, they often talk about 'making an amends' as if it were a combination of singular and plural. I find this so annoying that I may need to make amends for interrupting people to correct their grammar. But perhaps I am in error. Could you please advise as to the correctness of 'making an amends'?" The 12 steps to recovery first outlined by the founders of Alcoholics Anonymous, Bill Wilson and Bob Smith, have been enshrined in A.A.'s "Big Book" for more than seven decades. Over the years, the remorseful focus on "making amends" in Steps 8 and 9 has extended beyond the A.A. movement to the language of recovery more generally, even making an appearance in the public statement by Tiger Woods earlier this year apologizing for his marital infidelities. While Woods said in his prepared statement, "It's now up to me to make amends,"
he modified the idiom in an interview with ESPN the following month, speaking of the "many people I have to make an amends to." Woods is hardly alone in treating
the word amends as a singular noun, or even alternating between singular and plural interpretations of the word. Uncertainty over how to treat amends is far from new. The Oxford English Dictionary has examples of amends used in a distinctly singular fashion all the way back to the fifteenth century. The English essayist Joseph Addison wrote of making "an honorable amends," and T. S. Eliot, in his poem "Portrait of a Lady," posed the question, "How can I make a cowardly amends / For what she has said to me?"
or "penalties," the plural of amende, meaning "reparation." But while the singular form persisted in French, it dropped out of English, leaving us with a plural noun that has no proper singular equivalent. Something similar happened with other words in the language, like alms, odds, pains and riches. Noah Webster tried to sort out this confusion in his 1789 book, "Dissertations on the English Language." Webster held that "amends may properly be considered as in the singular number," but concluded that judgment of the word as singular
or plural was ultimately "at the choice of the writer." He saw the word means as
a parallel case: if means expresses a single action to achieve a result, it can
be thought of as singular despite the -s ending, but if it encompasses more than
one action, it can take the plural reading. Sadly, idioms don't always accord with logical argumentation. The singular version of means survives in the frozen phrase, a means to an end, but singular amends has never made much headway in standard English. Make an amends is vastly outnumbered by make amends in written use, though it is likely more popular in everyday speech, as Tiger Woods demonstrated when he went off-script. Notwithstanding illustrious predecessors like Addison and Eliot, it's best to make amends and not an amends, lest your act of contrition turn into a grammatical squabble. ============================================= IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6939. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Amazon edition: Original working manuscript of the Big Book From: Jenny or Laurie Andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/7/2010 3:13:00 AM
(jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com) It is not available from Amazon in the UK until November and it costs a great
deal more than in the US! Laurie A. - - - - IN THE UNITED STATES (PENNSYLVANIA): From: "J. Lobdell" I received notification on October 3rd that it would be available as of October
5th, on which day my copy arrived. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6940. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: font used in Big Book From: Jonathan Lanham-Cook . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/6/2010 6:17:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have a number of Big Books including 1st editions 9th and 15th printings, complete set of second editions and 1st printings of the 3rd and 4th editions - I also have UK 3rd and 4th editions (I'm after a UK second edition). It would seem that they all have either Kaufmann or Park Avenue (I'm absolutely no expert so I'm going on what's been discussed here).
it's
essentially a US 14th printing reproduced and printed in the UK -- however the
Caps at the beginning of the chapters are totally different. The text is unaltered and appears to be the same type face but with slightly different spacing -- anybody know anything about this?
Shoemaker From: Jeff Bruce . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/8/2010 12:42:00 AM
with the establishment Episcopal church since on their calendar they have a feast day for him in their calendar of saints. (January 31). I do agree with you that he is not representative of either the church or the Oxford Group, even though he was a prominent member of both.
Calendar of the Saints in no way implies "orthodoxy" in the kind of narrow way that some of the previous messages have been using that term. And it certainly doesn't imply that they were Anglicans at all. I would hesitate to try to speculate on what anybody on that list "must necessarily have believed" on some
theological issue of this sort simply because (and only because) that person's
name showed up on the list! EXAMPLES: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calendar_of_saints_%28Episcopal_Church_in_the_U nite\
May 23 Nicolaus Copernicus, 1543, and Johannes Kepler, 1543, Astronomers [KEPLER WAS A SUN WORSHIPER AND PROFESSIONAL ASTROLOGER who believed that the sun, not Jesus Christ, was the visible incarnation of God, and that the planets sang to the divine sun in what was called the music of the spheres] Sept. 8 Søren Kierkegaard, Teacher and Philosopher, 1855 [brought up a Lutheran, but he was a wild radical who rebelled against the established church and was the FOUNDER OF RADICAL EXISTENTIALIST PHILOSOPHY -- the 1960's radicals used to love his works] Dec. 10 Karl Barth, Pastor and Theologian, 1968 [Swiss Calvinist background, but the FOUNDER OF THE RADICAL CRISIS THEOLOGY that appeared in the early twentieth century] Dec. 14 Juan de la Cruz (John of the Cross), Mystic, 1591 [St. John of the Cross taught that GOD IS TOTALLY INDESCRIBABLE, an infinite abyss of no-thing-ness, and that there was no way that you can describe God literally in any kind of human words at all] Jan. 15 Martin Luther King Jr. [Baptist] Civil Rights Leader, 1968 Feb. 5 Roger Williams, 1683 [Baptist and later a Seeker], and Anne Hutchinson, 1643, Prophetic Witnesses
but
were the effective founders of the Methodist church] Mar. 26 Richard Allen, First Bishop of the African Methodist Episcopal Church,
1831 [Methodist, not Anglican] July 1 Harriet Beecher Stowe, Writer and Prophetic Witness, 1896 [Presbyterian] Nov. 15 Francis Asbury [Methodist], 1816, and George Whitefield, 1770, Evangelists Nov. 26 Isaac Watts, Hymnwriter, 1748 [Nonconformist] - - - - On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 2:55 PM, J. Lobdell Yüklə 25,47 Mb. Dostları ilə paylaş:
|