Finally, good luck to you Jim and thank you for all your hard work. I've
used your site's resources and they've enriched my recovery. I would
have been poorer off had this site not existed.
- - - -
From: "Mitchell K."
(mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com)
As far as I know Dr. Silkworth was never a member of AA and therefore, the
anonymity thing doesn't apply to the use of his name.
The most wonderful thing about losing my memory is that now I will always be
able to discover new places, meet new people and make new friends...
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++++Message 5921. . . . . . . . . . . . Spanish AA materials and History of
the Podium
From: juan.aa98 . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/10/2009 3:02:00 PM
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I am looking for Spanish AA books and material
from the 1940's, 50's, and 60's.
The very first Spanish AA material came out of
Mexico in 1947 translated by an Al-Anon, the
Akron panphlet titled A.A.
But I am also looking for the History of the
Podium, widely used in AA meetings in Spanish
in all of Latin America and Spanish-language
meetings in the US.
Where did that practice come from?
Any information on either of the above will be
appreciated.
Juan R.
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++++Message 5922. . . . . . . . . . . . List of 12 step and other recovery
programs
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/15/2009 3:15:00 PM
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A list of all the known 12 step programs and
other similar sorts of recovery programs
(alcoholism, narcotics, gambling, and so on).
Jim M. asked me to ask Ernie and Linda Kurtz
where this list was located, and it occurred
to me that there would be other members of the
AAHL who might like to look at it too.
It is on a website called Faces and Voices
of Recovery:
GO FROM THEIR HOME PAGE
http://www.facesandvoicesofrecovery.org/
TO THEIR "RECOVERY RESOURCES" PAGE
http://www.facesandvoicesofrecovery.org/resources/
AND THEN CLICK ON "MUTUAL SUPPORT"
http://www.facesandvoicesofrecovery.org/resources/support_home.php
Lora Passetti, a Chestnut Health System research
manager who has studied recovery support groups
for young people, works with Bill White to manage
this Guide, with advice and assistance from
Michael Boyle, Linda Kurtz and Keith Humphreys.
-- Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana)
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++++Message 5923. . . . . . . . . . . . Conversion as a social process
From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/13/2009 3:52:00 AM
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I've just finished reading "The Social World of
Alcoholics Anonymous" by Annette Smith (Hindsfoot,
2007)
http://hindsfoot.org/kas1.html
http://hindsfoot.org/kas2.html
in which she avers, "... the data presented
illustrates for the first time how that conversion
(to AA) is brought about through social
integration processes, and demonstrates that
success depends on social world integration."
At the risk of again being accused of "revisionist
speculation", historically this insight was
recognised originally by Carl Jung and Bill W.
In the Jung/Wilson correspondence Jung wrote,
"The only right and legitimate way to such an
experience (like Rowland H's) is, that it
happens to you in reality and it can only
happen to you when you walk on a path which
leads to higher understanding. You might be
led to that goal by an act of grace or though
a personal and honest contact with friends,
or through a higher education of the mind
beyond the confines of mere rationalism. I
see from your letter that Rowland H. has
chosen the second way, which was, under the
circumstances, obviously the best one." The
"second way" is "a personal and honest contact
with friends", i.e. a social process.
In his essay on Tradition One in the 12+12
Bill W. wrote: "The moment Twelfth-Step work
forms a group, a discovery is made - that most
individuals cannot recover unless there is a
group. Realisation dawns on each member that
he is but a small part of a great whole; that
no personal sacrifice is too great for
preservation of the Fellowship. He learns
that the clamour of desires and ambitions
within him must be silenced whenever these
could damage the group. It becomes plain that
the group must survive of the individual will
not."
Or, in Smith's taxonomy, the newcomer evolves
from "stranger" or "tourist" in AA to "insider"
- helping to create the social world of recovery
for those still to come.
Laurie A.
- - - -
From the moderator:
Laurie,
This was an amazing coincidence (or whatever),
because Annette Smith was just here in South
Bend on Thursday and Friday, coming up from
Naples, Florida, while Ernie Kurtz and
Linda Farris Kurtz drove down from Ann Arbor,
Michigan, and we all had dinner together and
talked about the AA program and Annette's book
and Ernie's next book that he is planning.
One of the things that makes Annette's book
so valuable, is that she interviews dozens of
AA members and uses their words to explain
how -- in particular -- shy and timid people,
who are frightened and uncomfortable in
groups, can learn how to work their way into
the AA fellowship gradually, a little bit at
a time, in non-threatening ways.
The person who quietly shows up in advance to
make the coffee, for example, can end up
feeling just as much a member as those who
are highly social "hale fellow well met" types.
Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana)
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++++Message 5924. . . . . . . . . . . . Annette Smith, The Social World of
Alcoholics Anonymous
From: bob gordon . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/15/2009 3:57:00 PM
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I am a book reviewer in numerous Canadian
publications and a friend of Bill and Bob.
I am interested in reviewing The Social World
of Alcoholics Anonymous by Annette Smith.
My most recent review along these lines is of
Spiritual Evolution by George E Vaillant. Any
idea how I could contact Annette Smith or
could you forward this e-mail to her?
--
Peace, love and understanding
Bob GORDON
bob34g@gmail.com
(bob34g at gmail.com)
- - - -
Message #5923 from Laurie A.
(jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com)
I've just finished reading "The Social World of
Alcoholics Anonymous" by Annette Smith (Hindsfoot,
2007)
http://hindsfoot.org/kas1.html
http://hindsfoot.org/kas2.html
in which she avers, "... the data presented
illustrates for the first time how that conversion
(to AA) is brought about through social
integration processes, and demonstrates that
success depends on social world integration."
At the risk of again being accused of "revisionist
speculation", historically this insight was
recognised originally by Carl Jung and Bill W.
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++++Message 5925. . . . . . . . . . . . Hearts and lives? Noun or verb?
From: pauguspass . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/16/2009 12:39:00 AM
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In the Big Book in Chapter 2 "There is
a Solution" on page 25 in The Great Fact
paragraph it says, "... our Creator has
entered into our hearts and lives in a
way that is indeed miraculous."
Do we have a consensus or feeling on whether
that's "lives" as a verb or "lives" as a noun?
For 19 years, I've heard it as a noun. That
seems like it may have been the intent. However
as a verb, it's really quite nice.
This came up at a meeting the other night.
Thanks.
George Cleveland
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++++Message 5926. . . . . . . . . . . . Arizona: Tucson, Ham B., and Mark on
the Gate pamphlet
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/16/2009 9:06:00 PM
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From: ewilson29@cox.net (ewilson29 at cox.net)
First group in Arizona: Tucson, Feb. 22, 1943,
Ham B. came from Los Angeles, and his first
pigeon was Frank C., a tailor. From a pamphlet
called "Mark on the Gate." This pamphlet
says that the Phoenix meeting started two
weeks later in 1943.
Does anybody from California have additional
information about Ham B.?
Does anybody have information about this
pamphlet called "Mark on the Gate"?
- - - -
The title is a reference to the marks which
hobos put on gates, telling other hobos about
the place: a kind woman lives here, work is
available here, talk religion and they'll give
you food, mean dog, homeowner has a gun, fresh
water and a campsite, etc., see:
http://www.worldpath.net/~minstrel/hobosign.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobo
- - - -
From GC the moderator: Bob Pearson's unpublished
A.A. World History 1985 however dates the
beginnings of AA in Arizona to the previous
year, that is, to 1942.
Bob was a good and careful worker, and of course
was extremely reliable about the history of the
New York GSO and the national AA organization.
But for state AA history, he had to rely on
people from that state who were known to the
New York office, and some of these people were
more accurate than others.
The only thing I know to do at this point is
to give both accounts, the one in the "Mark
on the Gate" pamphlet, and the one which
Bob P. put together.
ARIZONA: PHOENIX AND TUCSON 1942
"Frank C., in Phoenix, read the Saturday Evening Post article and wrote A.A.
in
New York for help. They answered that there were no groups nearby, but 'a
traveler will contact you.' And an A.A. member from the East, Dave S., did
so.
Some months later, a permanent transplant, Percy A., arrived, and he and
Frank
C. began the first Phoenix meeting in late 1942. A lawyer and a railroader
were
the next two recruits, followed by more, and with seven members in '44, the
group began meeting at the Phoenix Women's Club instead of in homes."
"A.A. reached Tucson also in 1942, but in quite a different way. Ham B., a
stocky, pleasant man of about 35, who had joined A.A. in his hometown of.
Van
Nuys, California, found himself stationed in Tucson with his wife, Marian.
Although he had brought a copy of the Big Book with him, he was uneasy about
leaving his home group and began seeking another alcoholic. He contacted the
air
base, the police, the psycho ward at the hospital, and finally the city
jail.
There, the desk sergeant pointed to a prisoner, Frank C., saying, 'he's a
great
guy, but you can't keep him sober.' A few days later, Ham saw Frank C. again
in
the Copper Kettle Coffee Shop, and invited him to join him for a cup of
coffee.
Frank was a tailor with a shop on 3rd Street and his wife had finally left
him.
He was ready to hear the A.A. message over that cup of coffee, and he never
had
another drink! In February 1943, Ham and Frank had the first registered A.A.
meeting in Tucson."
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++++Message 5927. . . . . . . . . . . . St. Francis Prayer: put a note in
the 12 and 12 about authorship?
From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/15/2009 1:24:00 PM
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Bill W said the St Francis prayer came from
St. Francis, but the Franciscans say that the
prayer came from a much later date.
Has AA addressed the difference, and will
they put a note in the 12&12, correcting the
impression?
Not coming from a Catholic background, I did
not know till Mel pointed it out to me in an
email.
Also the AA last line does not seem to track
the version from the French:
"Lord, grant that I may seek rather
to comfort than to be comforted
--to understand, than to be understood
--to love, than to be loved.
For it is by self-forgetting that one finds.
It is by forgiving that one is forgiven.
It is by dying that one awakens to Eternal Life."
Thanks, George
- - - -
http://wahiduddin.net/saint_francis_of_assisi.htm
http://www.franciscan-archive.org/franciscana/peace.html
The first known appearance of this inspiring
prayer was in 1912 AD when it was published in
the French magazine La Clochette.
Original French Text of
the Peace Prayer of St. Francis
Belle prière à faire pendant la Messe
Seigneur, faites de moi un instrument de votre paix.
Là où il y a de la haine, que je mette l'amour.
Là où il y a l'offense, que je mette le pardon.
Là où il y a la discorde, que je mette l'union.
Là où il y a l'erreur, que je mette la vérité.
Là où il y a le doute, que je mette la foi.
Là où il y a le désespoir, que je mette l'espérance.
Là où il y a les ténèbres, que je mette votre lumière.
Là où il y a la tristesse, que je mette la joie.
Ô Maître, que je ne cherche pas tant
à être consolé qu'à consoler,
à être compris qu'à comprendre,
à être aimé qu'à aimer,
car c'est en donnant qu'on reçoit,
c'est en s'oubliant qu'on trouve,
c'est en pardonnant qu'on est pardonné,
c'est en mourant qu'on ressuscite à l'éternelle vie.
Source: La Clochette, n 12, déc. 1912, p. 285.
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++++Message 5928. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: First AA group - updated list
August 16, 2009
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/16/2009 9:44:00 PM
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We still have a lot of places missing. Can you
check and see if there is an entry for your
state, province, or country? Thanks!
THE 50 U.S. STATES:
Alabama
Alaska
***Arizona: Tucson, Feb. 22, 1943
***Arkansas: Little Rock April 19, 1940
......(Bob Pearson's AA history gives late May 1940)
***California: San Francisco November 21, 1939
Colorado
***Connecticut: Greenwich June 16, 1939
Delaware
***Florida: Jacksonville December 1940
......(reg. with New York June 30, 1941)
Georgia
***Hawaii: Honolulu December 14, 1943
Idaho
***Illinois: Chicago (Evanston) September 21, 1939
***Indiana: Evansville April 23, 1940
***Iowa: Des Moines Oct 1943
Kansas
Kentucky
Louisiana
***Maine (disputed): Bangor claims to have
......started a meeting in 1946 (and a group with
......that name reg. with New York January 11, 1947)
......VS. Portland (reg. with NY January 7, 1947)
***Maryland: Baltimore June 16, 1940
Massachusetts
***Michigan: Detroit December 1939
***Minnesota: Minneapolis April 1941
Mississippi
***Missouri: St. Louis October 30, 1940
Montana
Nebraska
Nevada
New Hampshire
***New Jersey: South Orange May 14, 1939
New Mexico
***New York: New York City fall of 1935
North Carolina
North Dakota
***Ohio: Akron, Dr. Bob's last drink on
......June 17, 1935; founding celebrated in Akron
......as July 4, 1935 (Bill Dotson discharged
......from Akron City Hospital)
Oklahoma
Oregon
***Pennsylvania: Philadelphia, 1st organizational
......meeting February 28, 1940 (Jimmy Burwell had
......arrived in Philly on February 13; he formed the
......Philadelphia Mother Group on March 6, 1940
Rhode Island
***South Carolina: Spartanburg September 15, 1944
......(or Columbia in late November 1944)
South Dakota
Tennessee
***Texas: Houston February 1940; 1st meeting
......March 15, 1940 at the Houston YMCA
***Utah: Salt Lake City December 19, 1944
***Vermont: Montpelier October of 1944
***Virginia: Richmond 1941 (their first group
......started on June 6, 1940, but was based on the
......"drinking only beer" idea and soon fell apart)
***Washington State: Seattle April 19, 1941
***West Virginia: Charleston March 1, 1942.
***Wisconsin: Waunakee (along with Madison)
......had 20 members as of October 1, 1940
......(Milwaukee's group began on May 1, 1941)
Wyoming
***Washington D.C.: October 28 or 29, 1939 (acc.
......to page 31 of their intergroup history)
THE 10 CANADIAN PROVINCES:
***Alberta: Edmonton June 18, 1945
British Columbia
Manitoba
New Brunswick
Newfoundland and Labrador
***Nova Scotia: New Glasgow January 2, 1946
***Ontario: Toronto January 13, 1943
......(the first A.A. group in Canada)
Prince Edward Island
***Quebec: Montreal January 1945
Saskatchewan
WORLD:
***Australia: 1945, 1st outside Northern America !!!
......(1st Big Book received in Australia 1942)
***Ireland: Dublin November 18, 1946, 1st in Europe!!!
***UK (United Kingdom):
......England: London, the March 31, 1947 meeting
......at the Dorchester Hotel was the 1st UK group
......followed by Manchester with nearby Bolton
......in November 1948
......Scotland: Perth, Edinburgh and Glasgow 1949
......Wales: Cardiff April 13, 1951
***Denmark: 1st registered group January 1955
......("Ring I Ring -- Dansk AA" already existed,
......and had been in contact with the New York GSO,
......but rejected the spiritual aspect of the program)
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++++Message 5929. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: St. Francis Prayer: put a note
in the 12 and 12 about authorship?
From: victoria callaway . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/16/2009 9:48:00 PM
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The 12 x 12 doesn't say who the author of the
prayer was but I grew up Catholic and recognized
it as the St. Francis Prayer. But I would
like to know where and in what literature did
Bill say the prayer came from St. Francis?
Peace
vicki
- - - -
From GC the moderator: In the 12 and 12, in
the chapter on Step Eleven, it says:
"First let's look at a really good prayer. We
won't have far to seek; the great men and women
of all religions have left us a wonderful
supply. Here let us consider one that is a
classic."
"Its author was a man who for several hundred
years now has been rated as a saint. We won't
be biased or scared off by that fact, because
although he was not an alcoholic he did, like
us, go through the emotional wringer. And as
he came out the other side of that painful
experience, this prayer was his expression of
what he could then see, feel, and wish to
become:"
"'Lord, make me a channel of thy peace--that
where there is hatred, I may bring love--that
where there is wrong, I may bring the spirit
of forgiveness ....'" etc., etc.
- - - -
Original message from: Baileygc23@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, August 15, 2009
Bill W said the St Francis prayer came from
St. Francis, but the Franciscans say that the
prayer came from a much later date.
Has AA addressed the difference, and will
they put a note in the 12&12, correcting the
impression?
Not coming from a Catholic background, I did
not know till Mel pointed it out to me in an
email.
Also the AA last line does not seem to track
the version from the French:
"Lord, grant that I may seek rather
to comfort than to be comforted
--to understand, than to be understood
--to love, than to be loved.
For it is by self-forgetting that one finds.
It is by forgiving that one is forgiven.
It is by dying that one awakens to Eternal Life."
Thanks, George
- - - -
http://wahiduddin.net/saint_francis_of_assisi.htm
http://www.franciscan-archive.org/franciscana/peace.html
The first known appearance of this inspiring
prayer was in 1912 AD when it was published in
the French magazine La Clochette.
Original French Text of
the Peace Prayer of St. Francis
Belle prière à faire pendant la Messe
Seigneur, faites de moi un instrument de votre paix.
Là où il y a de la haine, que je mette l'amour.
Là où il y a l'offense, que je mette le pardon.
Là où il y a la discorde, que je mette l'union.
Là où il y a l'erreur, que je mette la vérité.
Là où il y a le doute, que je mette la foi.
Là où il y a le désespoir, que je mette l'espérance.
Là où il y a les ténèbres, que je mette votre lumière.
Là où il y a la tristesse, que je mette la joie.
Ô Maître, que je ne cherche pas tant
à être consolé qu'à consoler,
à être compris qu'à comprendre,
à être aimé qu'à aimer,
car c'est en donnant qu'on reçoit,
c'est en s'oubliant qu'on trouve,
c'est en pardonnant qu'on est pardonné,
c'est en mourant qu'on ressuscite à l'éternelle vie.
Source: La Clochette, n 12, déc. 1912, p. 285.
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++++Message 5930. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: St. Francis Prayer: put a note
in the 12 and 12 about authorship?
From: Glenn F. Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/17/2009 2:36:00 PM
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The point which George was making in Message
#5927, as I understand it, is that one clause
of the original French version has been left
out of the English version in the 12 + 12.
Here is the original French text of the St.
Francis Prayer as given in
http://wahiduddin.net/saint_francis_of_assisi.htm
http://www.franciscan-archive.org/franciscana/peace.html
compared with the English translation in the
12 + 12 on page 99.
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