Aa history Lovers 2009 moderators Nancy Olson and Glenn F. Chesnut page
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| If the texts I am using are correct, then the
English of the 12 + 12 leaves out the fourth clause from the end, which in English would say "For it is by giving that one receives." ____________________________________________ Seigneur, faites de moi un instrument de votre paix. Lord, make me a channel of thy peace Là où il y a de la haine, que je mette l'amour. --that where there is hatred, I may bring love Là où il y a l'offense, que je mette le pardon. --that where there is wrong, I may bring the spirit of forgiveness Là où il y a la discorde, que je mette l'union. --that where there is discord, I may bring harmony Là où il y a l'erreur, que je mette la vérité. --that where there is error, I may bring truth Là où il y a le doute, que je mette la foi. --that where there is doubt, I may bring faith Là où il y a le désespoir, que je mette l'espérance. --that where there is despair, I may bring hope Là où il y a les ténèbres, que je mette votre lumière. --that where there are shadows, I may bring light Là où il y a la tristesse, que je mette la joie. --that where there is sadness, I may bring joy. Ô Maître, que je ne cherche pas tant Lord, grant that I may seek rather à être consolé qu'à consoler, to comfort than to be comforted à être compris qu'à comprendre, --to understand, than to be understood à être aimé qu'à aimer, --to love, than to be loved. car c'est en donnant qu'on reçoit, ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? c'est en s'oubliant qu'on trouve, For it is by self-forgetting that one finds. c'est en pardonnant qu'on est pardonné, It is by forgiving that one is forgiven. c'est en mourant qu'on ressuscite à l'éternelle vie. It is by dying that one awakens to Eternal Life. - - - - In Message #5927, Baileygc23@... wrote: > > Bill W said the St Francis prayer came from > St. Francis, but the Franciscans say that the > prayer came from a much later date. > > Has AA addressed the difference, and will > they put a note in the 12&12, correcting the > impression? > > Not coming from a Catholic background, I did > not know till Mel pointed it out to me in an > email.
> > Also the AA last line does not seem to track > the version from the French: > > "Lord, grant that I may seek rather > to comfort than to be comforted > --to understand, than to be understood > --to love, than to be loved. > For it is by self-forgetting that one finds. > It is by forgiving that one is forgiven. > It is by dying that one awakens to Eternal Life." > > Thanks, George > > - - - - > > http://wahiduddin.net/saint_francis_of_assisi.htm > > http://www.franciscan-archive.org/franciscana/peace.html > > The first known appearance of this inspiring > prayer was in 1912 AD when it was published in > the French magazine La Clochette. > > Original French Text of > the Peace Prayer of St. Francis > > Belle prière à faire pendant la Messe > > Seigneur, faites de moi un instrument de votre paix. > Là où il y a de la haine, que je mette l'amour. > Là où il y a l'offense, que je mette le pardon. > Là où il y a la discorde, que je mette l'union. > Là où il y a l'erreur, que je mette la vérité. > Là où il y a le doute, que je mette la foi. > Là où il y a le désespoir, que je mette l'espérance. > Là où il y a les ténèbres, que je mette votre lumière. > Là où il y a la tristesse, que je mette la joie. > > Ô Maître, que je ne cherche pas tant > à être consolé qu'à consoler, > à être compris qu'à comprendre, > à être aimé qu'à aimer, > car c'est en donnant qu'on reçoit, > c'est en s'oubliant qu'on trouve, > c'est en pardonnant qu'on est pardonné, > c'est en mourant qu'on ressuscite à l'éternelle vie. > > Source: La Clochette, n 12, déc. 1912, p. 285. > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5931. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Millgate Hotel in Manchester From: Joseph Nugent . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/8/2009 2:11:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Millgate Newark Nottinghamshire NG24 4TU United Kingdom Joe (jumpinjoe1 at gmail.com) - - - - On Sat, Aug 8, 2009, Martin > Hi
> > Does anybody know where the Millgate Hotel was > (or is) in Manchester, England? > > Martin > > - - - - > > John Pine wrote: >> The UK A.A. site >> http://www.alcoholics-anonymous.org.uk/geninfo/13history.htm >> tells this story: >> >> The Start of AA in Great Britain > >> Progress was slow at first but when Canadian Bob visited new members Alan >> and wife Winnie in Bolton he informed them that they were the Bolton Group.
>> In November 1948 the Group held its first meeting in the Millgate Hotel, >> Manchester. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5932. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Spanish AA materials and History of the Podium From: aalogsdon@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/11/2009 3:59:00 PM
Publicado por "THE ALCOHOLIC FOUNDATION, INC.' P.O. Box (Apartado Postal) No. 459 (Grand Central Annex) Nueva York 17, N.Y. E.U.A. It is an original. -----Original Message----- From: juan.aa98 Sent: Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:02 pm
from the 1940's, 50's, and 60's. The very first Spanish AA material came out of Mexico in 1947 translated by an Al-Anon, the Akron panphlet titled A.A.
Podium, widely used in AA meetings in Spanish in all of Latin America and Spanish-language meetings in the US. Where did that practice come from? Any information on either of the above will be appreciated. Juan R. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5933. . . . . . . . . . . . This page in silkworth.net should be looked at from to to time From: Jim M . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/11/2009 3:53:00 PM
for updates due to fine-tuning of preparing silkworth.net ready for maintaining of, working on, continuation of, as a result of your input and/or concerns:
and create a temporary short cut to your desk top for easy viewing on ocassion. There are 2 people, as of now, who are ready to begin work with silkworth.net.
Ever greatful, Jim M, http://www.silkworth.net/sitemap.html - - - - From: "Ben Humphreys" (blhump272 at sctv.coop) Now I will add my two cents. I remember reading somewhere in the AA literature that anonmity does not extend beyond death. Furthermore, Silkworth was not even an alcoholic. I agree that we do not name groups after people.
of the Podium From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/11/2009 11:11:00 PM
materials came out of Cleveland, Ohio and translated by Dick Perez in the early 1940's. Dick began to translate the Big Book into Spanish pretty much just after he got sober. Dick was of Mexican ancestry so I guess the first Spanish AA material did, in a way, come out of Mexico. - - - - On Mon, 8/10/09, juan.aa98 I am looking for Spanish AA books and material from the 1940's, 50's, and 60's. The very first Spanish AA material came out of Mexico in 1947 translated by an Al-Anon, the Akron panphlet titled A.A.
Podium, widely used in AA meetings in Spanish in all of Latin America and Spanish-language meetings in the US. Where did that practice come from? Any information on either of the above will be appreciated. Juan R. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5935. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: First AA group - updated list August 16, 2009 From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/17/2009 3:45:00 AM
the
Dorchester hotel. In fact that was only the first AA meeting (as far as we know). AA Great Britain's own history records: "At the first AA meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous in 1947 there were eight people present, brought together
by a visiting American lady (Grace Oursler). Five of these had been in contact
with the Foundation of AA in the USA and the visitor contacted them on her arrival. The other two had been chance meetings and an invitation followed to join the others at the Dorchester hotel... An advert in the Financial Times followed... From then on there were various meetings which were held in a variety of places: cinemas, cafes, restaurants and homes. In 1948 the first London group began holding meetings at Chandoes Street, London, (emphasis added)
and in December a group met in Manchester..." (From Share and Share Alike, the book published by Great Britain General Service
Board to mark AA's 60th anniversary in the UK in 2007, which I compiled and edited).
hotel, recalling those early days, wrote: "We had until then followed American practice and ended meetings with the Lord's Prayer. One man seemed always to reach 'Amen' before others were past the '... forgive us our trespasses'. Therefore, and because some of the few recited without enthusiasm or not at all, I suggested the shorter 'Serenity, Courage and Wisdom' invocation to close the meetings. This has probably proved to be a happy change because some years later when asked to take a Chandos Street meeting I asked fellow members to follow the American tradition for this one November evening. Probably too insensitive to note that consternation reigned supreme I was later to learn that several tongues wagged with indignant violence - 'What right did he think he had to tamper with our time-honoured usage'?" Laurie A. - - - - From: glennccc@sbcglobal.net Subject: Re: First AA group - updated list August 16, 2009 WORLD: ***Australia: 1945, 1st outside Northern America !!! ......(1st Big Book received in Australia 1942) ***Ireland: Dublin November 18, 1946, 1st in Europe!!! ***UK (United Kingdom): ......England: London, the March 31, 1947 meeting ......at the Dorchester Hotel was the 1st UK group ......followed by Manchester with nearby Bolton ......in November 1948 ......Scotland: Perth, Edinburgh and Glasgow 1949 ......Wales: Cardiff April 13, 1951 ***Denmark: 1st registered group January 1955 ......("Ring I Ring -- Dansk AA" already existed, ......and had been in contact with the New York GSO, ......but rejected the spiritual aspect of the program)
August 16, 2009 From: Stephen Gentile . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/17/2009 9:59:00 AM
one would be a fine start. There was not a group just because Dr. Bobv had his last drink not Bill Dotson. If these dates are Group dates then NJ should be using Montclair and so on....
Subject: Re: First AA group - updated list August 16, 2009 ***New Jersey: South Orange May 14, 1939 ***Ohio: Akron, Dr. Bob's last drink on ......June 17, 1935; founding celebrated in Akron ......as July 4, 1935 (Bill Dotson discharged ......from Akron City Hospital) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5937. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: St. Francis Prayer: put a note in the 12 and 12 about authorship? From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/17/2009 11:35:00 AM
awakens" than as "one resurrects [oneself]" or even "one is reborn" -- and at least "one awakens" is a common translation for the prayer. As noted, the history of the prayer is pretty clearly set forth by the Franciscans on their
website. And as far as a note as to the actual authorship -- well, as an historian, I don't think it's important to "update" what Bill wrote -- it was generally thought of at least as a "Prayer attributed to St Francis" and he thought of it as by St Francis -- and after all, AA doesn't alter the text of the 12&12 to put the Washingtonians one hundred and sixty-five years ago (or even a hundred and fifty years ago) rather than a hundred years ago. - - - - > Original message from: Baileygc23@aol.com > Sent: Saturday, August 15, 2009 > > Bill W said the St Francis prayer came from > St. Francis, but the Franciscans say that the > prayer came from a much later date. > > Has AA addressed the difference, and will > they put a note in the 12&12, correcting the > impression? > > Not coming from a Catholic background, I did > not know till Mel pointed it out to me in an > email.
> > Also the AA last line does not seem to track > the version from the French: > > "Lord, grant that I may seek rather > to comfort than to be comforted > --to understand, than to be understood > --to love, than to be loved. > For it is by self-forgetting that one finds. > It is by forgiving that one is forgiven. > It is by dying that one awakens to Eternal Life." > > Thanks, George > > - - - - > > http://wahiduddin.net/saint_francis_of_assisi.htm > > http://www.franciscan-archive.org/franciscana/peace.html > > The first known appearance of this inspiring > prayer was in 1912 AD when it was published in > the French magazine La Clochette. > > Original French Text of > the Peace Prayer of St. Francis > > Belle prière à faire pendant la Messe > > Seigneur, faites de moi un instrument de votre paix. > Là où il y a de la haine, que je mette l'amour. > Là où il y a l'offense, que je mette le pardon. > Là où il y a la discorde, que je mette l'union. > Là où il y a l'erreur, que je mette la vérité. > Là où il y a le doute, que je mette la foi. > Là où il y a le désespoir, que je mette l'espérance. > Là où il y a les ténèbres, que je mette votre lumière. > Là où il y a la tristesse, que je mette la joie. > > Ô Maître, que je ne cherche pas tant > à être consolé qu'à consoler, > à être compris qu'à comprendre, > à être aimé qu'à aimer, > car c'est en donnant qu'on reçoit, > c'est en s'oubliant qu'on trouve, > c'est en pardonnant qu'on est pardonné, > c'est en mourant qu'on ressuscite à l'éternelle vie. > > Source: La Clochette, n 12, déc. 1912, p. 285. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5938. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Hearts and lives? Noun or verb? From: John Lee . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/17/2009 10:10:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From John Lee and Alex H. - - - - From: John Lee (johnlawlee at yahoo.com) A NOUN, NOT A VERB: "Lives", as used on page 25, is a plural noun. If it was a verb, there would be a comma after "hearts." CREATOR VS. HIGHER POWER: Also of interest here: the word "Creator" is used twelve times in the basic text, whereas "Higher Power" is only used twice. I've seldom heard members refer to their "Creator" in the course of a meeting. The politically-correct "Higher Power" has supplanted "God" in the vocabularly of many members, even though it's only used twice in the basic text [as a synonym for God]. I often mention that there's a solution, cleverly hidden in a chapter called, "There Is A Solution."
Pittsburgh "take the Steps, you'll be contacted"
(ah1270 at sbcglobal.net) George Cleveland (pauguspass) wrote: > In the Big Book in Chapter 2 "There is a Solution" on page 25 in The Great Fact paragraph it says, "... our Creator has entered into our hearts and lives in a way that is indeed miraculous."
"lives" as a noun? Well... "lives" must be a noun. If you quote the entire sentence, the grammar makes the usage clear. Here is the whole quote: "The central fact of our lives today is the absolute certainty that our Creator
has entered into our hearts and lives in a way which is indeed miraculous." If "lives" was a verb, grammar would require the sentence to read "The central FACTS of our lives today ARE the absolute certainty that our Creator has entered into our lives and lives in a way which is indeed miraculous." Of course that is setting aside the theological question of whether our Creator
requires a miracle in order to live and related theological questions such as "If G-d lives in our hearts, is this any more or less miraculous than that G-d lives anywhere at all." It is easy to mistake my response as sarcasm so let me remove all doubt. No sarcasm. No joke. I'm serious. Alex H. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5939. . . . . . . . . . . . Alabama, Alaska, Colorado , Delaware From: t . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/17/2009 3:12:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Glenn, I thought I'd start checking some of the old Grapevines for info on the areas you don't have anything down for yet. I won't swear that this will get at the FIRST group in these states but it should at least shed some light on a bit of their early history.
group [the "news circuit" and "new groups" columns from 44-48] for anyone who is interested and willing to search it out. And what is not here, is now readily available from the archives at the Grapevine website. Alabama GV Jly44, in short article "Bill's Trip South" mentions Birmingham Alabama as one of 8 groups Bill and Lois visited on their trip. nice mention at end of article: " In Birmingham, besides the usual open A.A. meeting, Bill was asked to address the monthly guest-luncheon of the town's swankest luncheon-club, which had already contracted to hear the Governor of Alabama on that date. The Governor, believe it or not, was put off until the next month so that the gathering could hear about Alcoholics Anonymous straight from the mouth of its First Member. Among those listening were the Mayor of Birmingham, the ex-Governor of Alabama, and several members of Congress. They'd come to hear Bill talk, not the other way 'round! "
" In Birmingham, Ala., the first regional A. A. convention ever held in the South went over the top with hundreds of members attending from Virginia, West Virginia, North and South Carolina, Louisiana, Georgia, Florida, Kentucky, Tennessee, Mississippi and Alabama."
GV Oct46, in "New Groups" column mentions "ALABAMA—Piedmont and Safford." GV Nov46, in "New Groups" column mentions ALABAMA — Birmingham (Woodlawn East
Group), Tuscaloosa (Veterans Hospital), Tuskegee." GV Dec46, in "New Groups" column mentions "ALABAMA—Gadsden; Tuscaloosa, Box 304."
GV Jly47, in "New Groups" column mentions "ALABAMA — Eufaula." GV Oct47, in "New Groups" column mentions "ALABAMA—Brewton, Fairhope and Wetumpka." GV Apr48, in "New Groups" column mentions "ALABAMA—Lanett." GV May48, in "New Groups" column mentions "ALABAMA—Troy." GV Jly48, in "New Groups" column mentions "ALABAMA—Huntsville; Sheffield." GV Aug48" in "New Groups" column mentions "ALABAMA — Decatur, North Alabama
Group; Dothan, Wiregrass A.A. Group." Alaska GV Aug45, in "AA's Country-Wide News Circuit" column mentions: "The wilds of Alaska have been penetrated by A. A. Well, not exactly the wilds, for Alaska's first group is in Skagway—a town known historically as the landing place of large quantities of supplies and thousands of people during the 1897-98 "Klondike Rush" to reach the gold mines in the upper (Canadian) Y u k o n . . . . " GV Dec46, in "New Groups" column mentions "ALASKA—Anchorage." GV Jan47, in "AA's Country-Wide News Circuit" column mentions: "Alaska Thawing Out.—How A.A. is beginning to flourish in Anchorage, Alaska, in spite Yüklə 11,49 Mb. Dostları ilə paylaş:
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