Aa history Lovers 2010 moderators Nancy Olson and Glenn F. Chesnut page
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> > > > SEE ALSO Message 6257 "Bob E. (AA #11)" > > > > AND ALSO Message 6265 "Re: Bob E. (AA #11)" > > >
++++Message 6280. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Having employers read the chapter To Employers From: Charles Knapp . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/25/2010 5:56:00 PM
form in the early 1940's and distrubied by the Alcoholic Foundation.
title of the pamphlet. I am sure these were passed out to a few companies where there were recovering alcoholic employees. Charles from Wisconsin IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6281. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill''s spiritual experience -- belladonna induced? From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/25/2010 6:04:00 PM
friend, Dr. William Silkworth, shook his head. Soon free of sedation and alcohol, I felt horribly depressed. My friend Ebby turned up. Though glad to see
him, I shrank a little. I feared evangelism, but nothing of the sort happened. After some small talk, I again asked him for his neat little formula for recovery. Quietly and sanely, without the slightest pressure, he told me. Then he left. Lying there in conflict, I dropped into the blackest depression I had ever known. Momentarily my prideful obstinacy was crushed. I cried out, "Now I'm ready to do anything — anything to receive what my friend Ebby has." Though I certainly didn't really expect anything, I did make this frantic appeal: "If there be a God, will He show Himself!"
light
up, blinding white. I knew only ecstasy and seemed on a mountain. A great wind
blew, enveloping and penetrating me. To me, it was not of air, but of Spirit.
Blazing, there came the tremendous thought "You are a free man." Then the ecstasy subsided. Still on the bed, I now found myself in a new world of consciousness which was suffused by a Presence. One with the universe, a great
peace stole over me. I thought, "So this is the God of the preachers, this is the Great Reality." But soon my so-called reason returned, my modern education took over. I thought
I must be crazy, and I became terribly frightened. Dr. Silkworth, a medical saint if ever there was one, came in to hear my trembling account of this phenomenon.
perhaps undergone a psychic experience which might solve my problem. Skeptical man of science though he then was, this was most kind and astute. If he had said, "hallucination," I might now be dead. To him I shall ever be eternally grateful. God Bless - - - - From the moderator: O.K., so Bill W. was "free of sedation" by that point -- i.e., even if he had been given a little bit of belladonna, it would have worn off.
to patients for some time, either knew in this case that Bill W. did not have any belladonna in his system, or that this was totally different from any kind of belladonna-induced mental aberrations. So Dr. Silkworth clearly regarded this as a "psychic experience" or religious experience of some sort, and something which could not possibly have been a drug-induced reaction in this particular case.
authentic life-changing religious experience, in my observation. You don't give scared people real permanent courage by giving them the temporary illusion of courage from too much alcohol, and you don't get people sober in fact from sending them on LSD trips, or electro- convulsive therapy, or anything else that fries their brains.
and changed permanently, and did NOT require continuing on daily doses of belladonna in order to keep him sober. So I still don't see any clinical evidence that you could get an alcoholic permanently sober by one dose of belladonna, or by giving the alcoholic LSD or tranquillizers or anything else of that sort. It doesn't work that way.
> > I read on Wikipedia that Bill had his White > Light Spiritual Experience while under the > effects of Charles Towns' Belladonna Cure, > which evokes hallucinations in the patient. > > What can you tell me about this? > > - - - - > > From the moderator: > > Belladonna was part of the Towns' treatment, > used to help keep the patient from going into > major DT's. If Bill W. was given belladonna on > this, his fourth visit to Towns (and in fact, > we don't really know the answer to this for > sure, based on my reading), > > would that much of the belladonna still have been > in his system at the time of his vision of > light?
> > Could belladonna have given this sort of white > light experience as a hallucination? The > descriptions of belladonna intoxication seem > to be saying that it was like the hallucinations > accompanying the DT's, only a little milder, > and what you experience when you're having DT's > is most definitely NOT Bill's report of a > positive and fulfilling experience of relief > and freedom. > > All in all, the descriptions I have read of > what belladonna does to you don't sound > anything remotely like Bill W.'s white light > experience: > > Belladonna produces dilated pupils, sensitivity to light, blurred vision, tachycardia, loss of balance, staggering, headache, rash, flushing, dry mouth
and throat, slurred speech, urinary retention, constipation, confusion, hallucinations, delirium, and convulsions. The plant's deadly symptoms are caused by atropine's disruption of the parasympathetic nervous system's ability
to regulate non-volitional/subconscious activities such as sweating, breathing, and heart rate. Its anticholinergic properties will cause in humans the disruption of cognitive capacities like memory and learning. > > That sure doesn't sound like Bill W.'s > mountain top experience to me! > > But have any of our members ever had experience > with taking belladonna, perhaps in their > misspent youths? What actually happens when > you take the stuff? > > Also be sure and see Bill Lash's excellent and > very thorough study of all this in Message #1493 > http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/1493 > > Bill Lash describes all the stuff that was involved > in the treatment, etc., etc. > > Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6282. . . . . . . . . . . . 2010 AA National Archives Workshop -- dates? From: BobR . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/24/2010 7:40:00 PM
it's in
Macon, Georgia and many, many months away but still it would be nice to be able
to plan for it in advance. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6283. . . . . . . . . . . . Speaker tapes of Joe H., Santa Monica CA From: diazeztone . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/29/2010 6:29:00 PM
tapes by Joe Hutch of Santa Monica, California. I find one on AA speaker tapes, but she is looking for a big book study he did in 1992-1993.
www.aabibliography.com eztone at hotmail ___________________________________ P.S., Joe Hawks 12 Step Big Book Study, around September of 1992, he was at a Salvation Army Shelter I think, and he was 5 years sober. There were 12 tapes in the set. I have found one by him with 8 tapes and 10 years sober, but that is not the one I want. I prefer the one where he is very humble at 5 years.
++++Message 6284. . . . . . . . . . . . Alcoholics Anonymous history time line
From: sally.kelly1941 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/26/2010 3:23:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Is there an existing print or online time line of AA history? (i.e. a chronological, labeled list of important dates, such as "Bill's sobriety date," Bob's sobriety date," "Bill"s step five," "12 steps developed," "Alcoholics Anonymous published," etc., etc.? - - - - From GC the moderator: two excellent AA timelines can be found online on the internet. One is put up by the New York GSO: http://www.aa.org/aatimeline/ It is not quite as detailed as the second one below, but has some very interesting items on it. It is a very nice piece of work.
Arthur S., who is an extremely careful and knowledgeable historian, respected all over the world for his precision and accuracy. http://silkworth.net/timelines/timelines_public/timelines_public.html There are other timelines, which our AAHL folks will be able to add to this list. But both of these timelines are extremely well done, and are very reliable. Glenn C. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6285. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Speaker tapes of Joe H., Santa Monica CA From: James Bliss . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/29/2010 10:32:00 PM
> > I have a friend who is looking for speaker > tapes by Joe Hutch of Santa Monica, California. > I find one on AA speaker tapes, but she is > looking for a big book study he did in > 1992-1993. > > Anybody have this or know where to find?? > > LD Pierce > www.aabibliography.com > eztone at hotmail > ___________________________________ > > P.S., Joe Hawks 12 Step Big Book Study, around > September of 1992, he was at a Salvation Army > Shelter I think, and he was 5 years sober. > There were 12 tapes in the set. > > I have found one by him with 8 tapes and > 10 years sober, but that is not the one I want. > I prefer the one where he is very humble at > 5 years. > > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6286. . . . . . . . . . . . AA National Archives Workshop -- Sept. 23-26, 2010 -- Macon From: Archives Historie . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/29/2010 10:59:00 PM
26th. The hotel will be the Marriott City Center in Macon, Georgia. No further details as of yet.
belladonna induced? From: corafinch . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/27/2010 8:20:00 AM
little information about Bill Wilson that I've not seen elsewhere. It takes up only a couple of pages in the book, so I just read those pages standing is the aisle at Barnes and Noble and didn't get the book. Apparently Huston Smith interviewed Bill and the person who gave him the LSD, a few months after Bill's
first trip. Bill told Smith that the experience was a dead ringer for the famous
white light experience. I'm not sure how much significance should be attached to that remark. Bill was
presumably trying to give Gerald Heard and Huston Smith something they would be interested to hear, and that motivation at that particular time probably shaped his recollection. Nevertheless, there a a few things Glenn said that I would tend to disagree with, and I'll intersperse them: > > From the moderator: > > O.K., so Bill W. was "free of sedation" by that > point -- i.e., even if he had been given a little > bit of belladonna, it would have worn off. From what I've read, alcoholics were given true "sedatives" only for the first
day or so, to guard against the most dangerous manifestations of withdrawal. The belladonna mixture itself was continued longer, possibly for the entire 4 or 5 day hospitalization. Dr. Lambert (see Bill Pittman, AA the Way It Began or by its other title, The Roots of AA) specified that the belladonna mixture had to be given in doses sufficient to produce flushed skin and dilated pupils. Otherwise, according to Lambert, it would not bring about the desired result of a "cessation in the desire" for alcohol. The traditional mnemonic for atropine toxicity is "blind as a bat, dry as a bone, red as a beet, mad as a hatter." In addition, the patients were given large doses of vegetable and mineral laxatives, enough to produce "bilious stools," which would have caused some degree of electrolyte and fluid depletion. Maybe Lambert thought he was preventing "wet brain." Some doctors thought that way at the time, reasoning that DTs had something to do with cerebral edema. > > And Dr. Silkworth, who had been giving belladonna > to patients for some time, either knew in this > case that Bill W. did not have any belladonna > in his system, or that this was totally different > from any kind of belladonna-induced mental > aberrations. > > So Dr. Silkworth clearly regarded this as a > "psychic experience" or religious experience > of some sort, and something which could not > possibly have been a drug-induced reaction > in this particular case. In view of Dr. Lambert's remarks about the cessation of desire for alcohol, how
do you know that what happened to Bill wasn't just what Dr. Silkworth was hoping
for? Maybe it was a rare but positive development. If you were Dr. Silkworth, would you have just said, "Forget it, it's the mad as a hatter part, you'll get
over it?" Pupillary dilatation can certainly cause visual "haloes" or the sensation of white light. Of course, it only happened after Bill prayed for an epiphany, and so cannot have been entirely attributable to the drug. Similarly, the "rushing wind" effect is often recalled as part of epiphanies and it has been suggested that the autonomic effects of the ecstasy increase cardiac output and make people momentarily "hear" their own pulse. This could also have been potentiated by the increased cardiac output caused by the belladonna.
that there was no connection. If you block a person's parasympathetic nervous system, as the atropine family of drugs does, the unopposed sympathetic nervous system can produce some strange effects. > > Drug-induced stuff is totally different from > authentic life-changing religious experience, > in my observation. You don't give scared people > real permanent courage by giving them the > temporary illusion of courage from too much > alcohol, and you don't get people sober in fact > from sending them on LSD trips, or electro- > convulsive therapy, or anything else that fries > their brains. > > Bill W.'s life genuinely changed at that point, > and changed permanently, and did NOT require > continuing on daily doses of belladonna in > order to keep him sober. > > So I still don't see any clinical evidence that > you could get an alcoholic permanently sober by > one dose of belladonna, or by giving the alcoholic > LSD or tranquillizers or anything else of that > sort. It doesn't work that way. I agree one hundred percent. Part of the lesson, though, is that things that "work" can be our worst enemies, just because they "work." Xanax and the other tranquilizers work. Almost any downer will, and there a are people who swear by amphetamines (for adult ADD, of course). Ibogaine (a newer type of hallucinogen) may even work. Just because Bill used something and it "worked" doesn't mean that it was the reason he stayed sober. There are no free lunches. -Cora
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6288. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill''s spiritual experience -- belladonna induced? From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/30/2010 3:19:00 PM
who
had taken belladonna, describing what happened and what it felt like. Belladonna has the same psychoactive components as jimsonweed (Datura stramonium) -- atropine, hyoscine (scopolamine), and hyoscyamine. When we are told that a substance causes "hallucinations," we tend to automatically assume today that some of these are going to be pleasant hallucinations, such as people sometimes get from LSD and magic mushrooms, where
some people get wonderful feelings of the divinity of the whole universe, and
being one with the universe, and that sort of thing. We might imagine that -- along with Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds and Marshmallow Clouds -- that maybe, just maybe, a person high on something like this might have Bill Wilson's kind of experience. But in fact, all you seem to get from belladonna is a relatively "bad trip," not
a "good trip." There tends to be a disturbing and fairly nightmarish quality to the hallucinations and delusions. That is why belladonna (which is easily available, we've had it growing wild in our back yard) has never become popular
with the druggies. In the U.S., it isn't even illegal, on the theory that no one
would ever find this a satisfying recreational drug. ______________________________ At any rate, you can read to your heart's content in the wide selection of first
hand accounts written by people who have taken belladonna, which are given in:
Some of them which I read were: http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=9392 100% Visual Hallucinations, Belladonna, by parXal http://de1.erowid.org/experiences/exp.phpquery=ID=35717.html A Trip I'll Never Forget, Belladonna, by Astral Perceptionz
The Manson Family killed on this plant, Atropa belladonna, by Kevin
Wandering Delirium, Belladonna (roots), by yamamushi ______________________________
EXPERIENCES or religious experiences in any sense of the word was the following one --
mushrooms -- in this case the variety known as liberty cap (Psilocybe semilanceata, a psychedelic mushroom that contains the psychoactive compound psilocybin)
the kind of seemingly deeply spiritual experiences which some people have reported after taking LSD or magic mushrooms or peyote. But for the details, read this person's first hand account of mixing belladonna with magic mushrooms:
Sensory Illusion Destroyed Mushrooms, Belladonna & Brugmansia, by The Craic ______________________________ LET'S COMPARE THE PURE BELLADONNA EXPERIENCES WHICH WE HAVE READ ABOVE, TO BILL WILSON'S ACCOUNT OF HIS OWN EXPERIENCE:
peace and serenity as I had never know. There was utter confidence. I felt lifted up, as though the great clean wind of a mountain top blew through and through. God comes to most men gradually, but His impact on me was sudden and profound." "For a moment I was alarmed, and called my friend, the doctor, to ask if I were still sane. He listened in wonder as I talked."
happened to you I don't understand. But you had better hang on to it. Anything is better than the way you were." The good doctor now sees many men who have such experiences. He knows that they are real."
(Bill gave an almost identical account in his 1958 talk to the NYC Medical Society, see AAHL Message 6281): "All at once I found myself crying out, 'If there is a God, let Him show Himself! I am ready to do anything, anything!' Suddenly the room lit up with a great white light. I was caught up into an ecstasy which there are no words to describe. It seemed to me, in the mind's eye, that I was on a mountain and that a wind not of air but of spirit was blowing. And then it burst upon me that I was a free man. Slowly the ecstasy subsided. I lay on the bed, but now for a time I was in another world, a new world of consciousness. All about me and through me there was a wonderful feeling of Presence, and I thought to myself, 'So this is the God of the preachers!' A great peace stole over me and I thought, 'No matter how wrong things seem to be, they are still all right. Things are all right with God and His world." "Then, little by little, I began to be frightened. My modern education crawled
back and said to me, 'You are halluncinating. You had better get the doctor.'
Dr. Silkworth asked me a lot of questions. After a while he said, 'No, Bill, you
are not crazy. There has been some basic psychological or spiritual event here.
I've read about them in the books. Sometimes spiritual experiences do release
people from alcoholism.' Immensely relieved, I feel again to wondering what had
actually happened." "More light on this came the next day. It was Ebby, I think, who brought me a copy of William James' Varieties of Religious Experience. It was rather difficult reading for me, but I devoured it from cover to cover." ______________________________ In this case, Lecture 3 "The Reality of the Unseen," and parts of Lectures 4-5
"The Religion of Healthy-Mindedness," would have given Bill W. examples of other
people who had had similar experiences. Near the beginning of Lecture 4, James quoted from R. M. Bucke's book Cosmic Consciousness, for example, and later on he quotes from R. W. Trine, In Tune with the Infinite.
understanding Bill Wilson's religious experiences. James also frequently refers (in this part of his book) to the New England Transcendentalists (Emerson, Thoreau, and so on, and God as the Over-Soul). James also makes a number of references in this part of his book to the poety of
Walt Whitman (a later outgrowth of the Transcendentalist movement). All of these are useful for understanding Bill W's spirituality. ______________________________ But the most important observation to make is, to my mind, that Bill Wilson's
experience was very, very different from the sort of nightmarish trip that people seem to have when they take belladonna. It wasn't the same thing at all.
website
From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/29/2010 8:53:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII As soon as fuller info is available for the AA National Archives Workshop in Macon, it should be posted on this website:
Shakey Mike Gwirtz Hardcore Group
and concepts From: denise200305 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/27/2010 4:13:00 PM
AA meeting rooms, with the 12 Steps, 12 Traditions, and 12 Concepts written on them.
was whether we obtain a Concept Banner for our group.
advised that banners can be confusing to newcomers (e.g Step 6 and what is written on Step 6 in 12x12 two different things Tradition 3 etc.). He also claimed that Bill W can be quoted as saying that he was against the banners. I have never read or heard this before. I have dozens of books and AA info on AA history and Bill W, and have been unable to find any info on this.
the history of the banners and Bill W's thoughts on their use (if he ever said anything about them) as I am very interested in finding out if this was so. Really appreciate your time Thanking you Kind Regards Denise Member Brisbane Traditions Group Australia
From: Ben Humphreys . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/24/2010 6:20:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I think it was one of Bill W.'s tall tales. It was supposedly frozen in ice .... one of the old Big Books with the red and yellow covers.
and tall tales. Ben H. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6292. . . . . . . . . . . . Travel Discounts to EURYPAA From: Stockholm Fellowship . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/27/2010 8:35:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII EURYPAA = All-Europe Young People in A.A. Discounts for travel to EURYPAA are available on Continental Airlines, American Airlines and most One World partner airlines. Visit
Stockholm, Sweden, July 23-25, 2010. Hundreds of AAs from across Europe - and around the world - are coming together in fellowship and celebration of sobriety through A.A. Don't miss it! More information at www.EURYPAA.org/2010 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6293. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Having employers read the chapter To Employers From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/25/2010 12:29:00 PM
the book with its chapter noted to my supervisors who were having problems with an alcoholic employee. They gave me the book back after a while. Subsequently they laid the employee off. He was hired by another company, and laid off there, on his way back to the local area he drove his car into the support for an overpass and was killed. - - - - From: Mel B. (melb at buckeye-access.com) Hi Harriet, It seems to me that I read once that the employers section was printed as a separate pamphlet. Though short on cash, the AA pioneers considered this to be so important that they reprinted it in this form as an inexpensive way to reach employers. Mel Barger, Toledo melb@accesstoledo.com (melb at accesstoledo.com)
chapter To Employers From: secondles . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/25/2010 7:15:00 PM
exactly fit with this question but nonetheless is a support system for alcoholics regarding employment.
which
operates in all States which began in 1922. I was involved with this program professionaly throughout my career. Seven years of that career I carried a case load as a Counselor in the State of Maryland (1955-1962), and the next 25 years in executive positions administuring that program with the Federal Office (OSERS-RSA). It is a program which serves a broad range of disabilities, including alcoholism, provided the disability constitutes a Vocational problem. It is not a "welfare" type of program and sometimes a client may be asked to participate in certain costs associated with his rehabilitation plan. Mostly those services are free or handled cooperatively with other agencies. Job Placement (dealing with employers) is one of the services. It respects confidentiality just like other professions. It is customary when a Counselor has a case concerning alcoholism,(and it might
start with a referral from an employer who would like to keep an employee who is
being or causing a problem) that the question of job adjustment needs to be discussed. Perhaps the Counselor might discuss the idea of AA with the Client. Perhaps the employer might benefit if the Counselor interceded and offered some insight (with the client's permission) about the client's positive aspects such as underutilized skills, etc. I don't want to discuss the whole program which is always individualized (and I
personally didn't understand the AA-12-Steps program back then) but I mention
the VR program here to point out that sometimes it is not simply reading the Big
Book, or something related, which is useful. A hands-on, compassionate, professional helper might be needed...perhaps with the person, or with the employer, or both.
Colorado Springs, CO IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6295. . . . . . . . . . . . AA timeline From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/30/2010 1:23:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Sally K. asked about AA timelines: For a 57-page AA timeline, you can go to: http://www.4dgroups.org Click "Downloads" - click Documents - scroll down to "Original 57 Page Timeline" (2004) . . plus, you will find the same updated (2007) timeline on the next page. I keep this timeline next to my PC at all times. Bob S. - - - - From the moderator: This timeline http://www.4dgroups.org/index.php?option=com_remository&Itemid=26&func=filei nfo&\
seems to be another version of Arthur S.'s excellent timeline mentioned in the previous message.
From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/26/2010 10:00:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Jared Lobdell and Shakey Mike. LD Pierce (aabibliography.com) had asked, "is Clyde B. ('Freeman Carpenter') still alive?" - - - - From: "J. Lobdell" Still alive -- and on Facebook (full real name) -- and will be 90 on March 12. - - - - From: Shakey1aa@aol.com (Shakey1aa at aol.com) Clyde is still with us. I saw him about 2 months ago at a Unity pitch given by the Southeastern Pennsylvania Intergroup Assn, SEPIA, of whom I am a past Chairperson. I approached him about helping out in a meet and greet sometime in the near future for the Archives Committee. Of course he said he would if he could.
moving to Bucks county outside Philadelphia. He has volunteered for a long time at Livengrin, a rehab on the old estate of Mercedes Mc C., an Oscar winning actress( All the King's Men).
it is not because of his length of sobriety only, I will give him a call tomorrow if for nothing more than one alcoholic talking to another.
Shakey Mike Gwirtz Hardcore Group
> Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 > Subject: Re: Clyde B. and Freeman Carpenter > > Interesting ---- is Clyde B. ("Freeman Carpenter") > still alive? > > (Clyde has email and website selling that > book and others: www.freemancarpenter.com ) > > LD Pierce > aabibliography.com > > - - - - > > "J. Lobdell" > > > > My recollection is that Chauncey C. was the longest sober member at Toronto 2005 and died in 2006. Did he get sober at Dr. Bob's [house] in Akron in 1941? He was succeeded as oldest by Easy E. down in Alabama, who got sober, I think, in Nov 1942, and died in 2008? I don't know of any living members who got sober before the end of WW2 (and stayed sober). > > There is in Bristol, Pennsylvania, Clyde B. who got sober in Boston June 20 1946 and wrote a book a dozen years ago -- SIXTY YEARS A DRUNK FIFTY YEARS SOBER (under the pen-name Freeman Carpenter). He's the longest sober I've met. > >
++++Message 6297. . . . . . . . . . . . Roy L. Smith, Emergency Rations From: Charlie C . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/26/2010 7:14:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Not long ago I got some of the reprint "can openers" available from the Akron AA
Archives website. Interesting stuff, including the meditation booklet by Roy L. Smith, "Emergency Rations." I have found some biographical info on him, but am curious still to find out what, if any, contact he might have had with AA. As a Methodist preacher and writer in a time when many of their publications were popular in AA circles, e.g. the "Upper Room," it might have been just from that
general connection, but I was wondering if anyone knew of more direct contact
between him and AA folks? Charlie C.IM = route20guy "O wad some Pow'r the giftie gie us To see oursels as others see us! It would frae monie a blunder free us an foolish notion...."
From: jaynebirch55 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/26/2010 8:38:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello friends, Jayne from Barking Big Book study here. The group has asked if you have any information on the doctor mentioned on page 133 of the Big Book who advised that the use of sweets was often helpful. God bless Jayne - - - - From G.C. the moderator, see Big Book pp. 133-134: "ALCOHOLICS SHOULD CONSTANTLY HAVE CHOCOLATE AVAILABLE" "One of the many doctors who had the opportunity of reading this book in manuscript form told us that the use of sweets was often helpful, of course depend- ing upon a doctor's advice. He thought all alcoholics should constantly have chocolate available for its quick energy value at times of fatigue. He added that occasionally in the night a vague craving arose which would be satisfied by candy. Many of us have noticed a tendency to eat sweets and have found this practice beneficial." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6299. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill''s spiritual experience -- belladonna induced? From: Lawrence Willoughby . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/31/2010 3:01:00 PM
treatment of adolescents who are alcoholics and drug addicts, I have known at least a thousand cases of people who have experimented with using belladonna to get high. Belladonna to the best of my experiences with patients has NEVER produced anything like what Bill Wilson reported happening to him at Towns Hospital. It is always bad. The attempt to claim that Bill Wilson's experience was a hallucination induced
by belladonna is the silliest thing I have ever heard. Where is this coming from?
======================================== Lawrence Willoughby, thirty-five years in the clinical specialties areas of substance abuse, trauma, PTSD including combat. Has been a clinical supervisor, CEO of a partial program, MSW, LCSW, DCSW. ========================================
eyewitness accounts by people who had taken belladonna, describing what happened and what it felt like .... all you seem to get from belladonna is a relatively "bad trip," not a "good trip." There tends to be a disturbing and fairly nightmarish quality to the hallucinations and delusions. Belladonna by itself does NOT ... produce the kind of seemingly deeply spiritual experiences which some people have reported after taking LSD or magic mushrooms or peyote. You can read to your heart's content in the wide selection of first hand accounts written by people who have taken belladonna, which are given in:
OWN VERY POSITIVE AND UPLIFTING EXPERIENCE: Big Book p. 14: "There was a sense of victory, followed by such a peace and serenity as I had never know. There was utter confidence. I felt lifted up, as though the great clean wind of a mountain top blew through and through. God comes to most men gradually, but His impact on me was sudden and profound." "For a moment I was alarmed, and called my friend, the doctor, to ask if I were still sane. He listened in wonder as I talked."
happened to you I don't understand. But you had better hang on to it. Anything is better than the way you were." The good doctor now sees many men who have such experiences. He knows that they are real."
(Bill gave an almost identical account in his 1958 talk to the NYC Medical Society, see AAHL Message 6281): "All at once I found myself crying out, 'If there is a God, let Him show Himself! I am ready to do anything, anything!' Suddenly the room lit up with a great white light. I was caught up into an ecstasy which there are no words to describe. It seemed to me, in the mind's eye, that I was on a mountain and that a wind not of air but of spirit was blowing. And then it burst upon me that I was a free man. Slowly the ecstasy subsided. I lay on the bed, but now for a time I was in another world, a new world of consciousness. All about me and through me there was a wonderful feeling of Presence, and I thought to myself, 'So this is the God of the preachers!' A great peace stole over me and I thought, 'No matter how wrong things seem to be, they are still all right. Things are all right with God and His world." "Then, little by little, I began to be frightened. My modern education crawled
back and said to me, 'You are hallucinating. You had better get the doctor.' Dr. Silkworth asked me a lot of questions. After a while he said, 'No, Bill, you are not crazy. There has been some basic psychological or spiritual event here. I've read about them in the books. Sometimes spiritual experiences do release people from alcoholism.' Immensely relieved, I feel again to wondering what had actually happened." "More light on this came the next day. It was Ebby, I think, who brought me a copy of William James' Varieties of Religious Experience. It was rather difficult reading for me, but I devoured it from cover to cover." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6300. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill''s spiritual experience -- belladonna induced? From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/30/2010 5:10:00 PM
experience of some sort at the granite mill up on the mountain?
Bill W.; A Biography of Alcoholics Anonymous Cofounder Bill Wilson, page 11.
William C. ("Willie") Wilson was Bill W.'s paternal grandfather.
"William Wilson may have preferred inn keeping to quarrying, but inn keeping is seldom the right occupation for a hard-drinking man. His attempts to control his drinking led him to try Temperance pledges and the services of revival-tent preachers. Then, in a desperate state one Sunday morning, he climbed to the top
of Mount Aeolus. There, after beseeching God to help him, he saw a blinding light and felt the wind of the Spirit. It was a conversion experience that left him feeling so transformed that he practically ran down the mountain and into town."
street from the Wilson House, the Sunday service was in progress. Bill's grandfather stormed into the church and demanded that the minister get down from the pulpit. Then, taking his place, he proceeded to relate his experience to the shocked congregation. Wilson's grandfather never drank again. He was to live another eight years, sober." ========================================== IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6301. . . . . . . . . . . . When Love Is Not Enough -- Lois Wilson Story -- April 25, 2010 From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/3/2010 3:31:00 AM
Not Enough -- airs in the U.S. on Sunday, April 25 at 9 P.M. EST in a Hallmark Hall of Fame Presentation on the CBS Network. http://winona-ryder.org/2010/01/when-love-is-not-enough-release-date/?utm_so urce\
This is based on Bill B's book. Yours in Service. Shakey Mike Gwirtz Hardcore group
traditions, and concepts From: diazeztone . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/2/2010 10:39:00 PM
a traditions group you would certainly have the traditions and concepts on the wall.
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