Aa history Lovers 2010 moderators Nancy Olson and Glenn F. Chesnut page
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promise of freedom from slavery to alcohol. - - - - There are actually two questions here. (1) What percentage of the people who go to two or three AA meetings end up staying with the program, and gaining long term sobriety? The official New York A.A. figures were assembled in a series of Triennial Surveys, made every three years, and published by New York. See Message 6410, which was posted up just a little over a week ago: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/6410 You can read the article to which it refers as an Adobe Acrobat file: http://hindsfoot.org/recout01.pdf or as an MS Word file: http://hindsfoot.org/recout01.doc
those people who are in their first month of attending A.A. meetings, 26% will still be attending A.A. meetings at the end of that year. And of those who are in their fourth month of attending A.A. meetings (i.e., those who have completed their initial ninety days, and have thereby demonstrated a certain willingness to really try the program), 56% will still be attending A.A. meetings at the end of that year. According to the really old timers in my part of the U.S. -- I have asked a large number of them this question, and they universally agree -- THE PEOPLE WHO GO BACK OUT AND DRINK are, 90% to 95% of the time, the people WHO QUIT ATTENDING MEETINGS and quit trying to work the program. If you have severe diabetes, then the combination of insulin injections and watching your diet will do a lot of good, but if you quit the insulin shots and start pigging out on chocolate cake again, you will get very ill -- not because modern medicine "does not work," but because you stopped following the doctors' recommendations. It's time to quit blaming A.A. if people go to a few meetings, pay no attention to what is said, put out no effort, and then disappear and go back to drinking
again. If you take three or four violin lessons, refuse to practice the violin at home,
and then quit going to your lessons, then not even the greatest violin teacher
in the world can teach you how to play the violin successfully. Let's get serious here! - - - - (2) What percentage of people who FAITHFULLY KEEP ON ATTENDING A.A. MEETINGS and
who GENUINELY WORK THE STEPS will end up gaining long term sobriety? As the Big Book says -- and as actual observation shows, in my own experience -- "Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path." Even
people who have slips -- IF they come back to the tables and start attending meetings again and working the program again -- will eventually gain long term sobriety and die sober, at least 98% of the time, in my own observation over the years.
took fifteen years and a term in the state penitentiary, and the other who took twenty years, before they started taking the program seriously. But please, anybody who is reading this, it is NOT necessary for YOU to do it the way they did it!!!) Just keep coming back, and it will work. As the good old timers put it, YOU NEVER FAIL TILL YOU STOP TRYING. Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6422. . . . . . . . . . . . Who is Mr. T in the Keys to the Kingdom?
From: Henry Cox . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/5/2010 10:19:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Who is Mr. T in this story at the back of the Big Book, "The Keys to the Kingdom"? - - - - From GC the moderator: "The Keys to the Kingdom," on pp. 268 ff. in the fourth edition of the Big Book,
is the story of Sylvia Kauffmann. She got sober on September 13, 1939. For more about Sylvia K., see Nancy Olson's short biographies of the people who
wrote the stories at the end of the Big Book: http://www.a-1associates.com/westbalto/HISTORY_PAGE/Authors.htm On page 273 Sylvia refers to "a visit from Mr. T., a recovered alcoholic." This was Earl Treat (whose story is "He Sold Himself Short," on pp. 258 ff. in the 4th edit. of the Big Book). He was the one who founded A.A. in Chicago.
http://hindsfoot.org/mnfound1.html (Earl is standing between Dr. Bob and Barry Collins, who worked with Ed Webster
on printing and distributing the Little Red Book.) There is another photograph of Earl by himself at: http://hindsfoot.org/mnfound2.html Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6423. . . . . . . . . . . . P 48 AA Pamphlet From: john wikelius . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/5/2010 11:29:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII AA periodically surveys its members. This pamphlet is titled: A.A. Membership Survey It has a lot of interesting data. Can be purchased from GSO. John Wikelius Enterprise, Alabama IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6424. . . . . . . . . . . . The long early drafts of the Big Book manuscript From: ginnymatthew . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/30/2010 5:11:00 PM
of the Big Book was 400 or so pages long. How many different versions of these (longer) early drafts of the Big Book do we know about? How many of these earlier versions still survive, and where can copies of them be found? Even if copies of some of these drafts no longer exist, can we know anything about what they might have contained?
or someone else? There is a big difference between 400 or more pages, and the present 164 pages. Ginny M. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6425. . . . . . . . . . . . An addiction even worse stigmatized than alcoholism From: Mike . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/31/2010 7:42:00 PM
(pp. 141-142) a potential new member confides to the group that he was "the victim of another addiction even worse stigmatized than alcoholism." He's finally allowed to join. Does anyone know what that stigma was?? Thanks, Mike - - - - From GC the moderator: This question gets asked periodically, so it's probably
not a bad idea to re-post the answer. See AAHistoryLovers Message 1973, from Arthur Sheehan: "WORSE STIGMATIZED": In the year 1937: On the AA calendar of "year two" the spirit of Tradition 3 emerged. A member asked to be admitted who frankly described himself to the "oldest" member as "the victim of another addiction even worse stigmatized than alcoholism." The "addiction" was "sex deviate."** Guidance came from Dr Bob (the oldest member in Akron, OH) asking, "What would the Master do?" The member was admitted and plunged into 12th Step work. (DBGO 240-241 12&12 141-142) Note: this story is often erroneously intermingled with an incident that occurred 8 years later in 1945 at the 41st St clubhouse in NYC. (PIO 318). **Information on this revelation was provided by David S from an audiotape of Bill W at an open meeting of the 1968 General Service Conference. See also the pamphlet The Co-founders of Alcoholics Anonymous. (Publication number P-53, pg 30).
In the year 1945: Bill W was called by Barry L (who would later author Living
Sober) from the 41st St clubhouse. Bill persuaded the group to take in a black
man who was an ex-convict with bleach-blond hair, wearing women's clothing and
makeup. The man also admitted to being a "dope fiend." When asked what to do about it, Bill posed the question, "did you say he was a drunk?" When answered, "yes" Bill replied, "well I think that's all we can ask." The man was reported to have disappeared shortly after. (BW-FH 8, PIO 317-318) Anecdotal accounts erroneously say that this individual went on to become one of the best 12th Steppers in NY. This story is often erroneously intermingled with that of a 1937 incident ("year two" on the AA calendar) involving an Akron member that is discussed in the Tradition Three essay in the 12&12 (pgs 141-142). IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6426. . . . . . . . . . . . The long early drafts of the Big Book manuscript From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/6/2010 1:02:00 AM
http://www.4dgroups.org/ -- click "Downloads," then "Documents," and scroll down to "Bill's Original Story." This is 36 pages: http://www.4dgroups.org/index.php?option=com_remository&Itemid=26&func=start down\
Interestingly, "Bill's Story" was titled Chapter 2 at that time, while "There Is a Solution" was tagged as Chapter 1. From my information, these two chapters were started in the Spring of 1938, and the next thing written -- "The Doctors Opinion" -- was produced in July of that year. However, I cannot remember exactly from what source I learned this information. I can send interested parties a PDF file of this writing. Bob S. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6427. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr. Bob on Anonymity From: Karen Reynolds . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/6/2010 1:12:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Doctor Bob and the Good Oldtimers talks about this on pages 264 and 265. It indicates that D.S. of San Mateo, California quoted Dr. Bob in a February 1969 Grapevine article. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6428. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr. Bob on Anonymity From: M.J. Johnson . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/6/2010 7:06:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII According to the Grapevine Digital Archive http://www.aagrapevine.org/da/ the
title of the article is "Dr. Bob on Tradition Eleven" (Vol. 25 No. 9). It doesn't contain anything more of a quote other than what was included in the
original question here. - - - - On Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 1:12 AM, Karen Reynolds > > Doctor Bob and the Good Oldtimers talks about this on pages 264 and 265. It > indicates that D.S. of San Mateo, California quoted Dr. Bob in a February > 1969 Grapevine article. > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6429. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Modern A.A. success rate From: allan_gengler . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/6/2010 9:43:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Allan Gengler, John Moore, and Baileygc23 - - - - From: "allan_gengler" AA does do a survey periodically and you can find the latest here: http://www.aa.org/catalog.cfm?origpage=75&product=65 http://www.aa.org/pdf/products/p-48_07survey.pdf - - - - ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS 2007 MEMBERSHIP SURVEY (conference approved literature) LENGTH OF SOBRIETY 33% sober more than 10 years 12% sober between 5-10 years 24% sober between 1-5 years 31% sober less than 1 year
Members attend an average of 2.4 meetings per week AGES OF MEMBERS 2.3% under age 21 11.3% age 21 through 30 16.5% age 31 through 40 28.5% age 41 through 50 23.8% age 51 through 60 12.3% age 31 through 70 5.3% over 70 HOW MEMBERS WERE FIRST INTRODUCED TO A.A. (two reponses were permitted) 33% through an A.A. member 33% treatment facility 31% self-motivated 24% family 11% court order 8% counseling agency 7% health professional 3% non-A.A. friend or neighbor 3% correctional facility 2% Al-Anon or Alateen member 2% A.A. literature 1% newspaper/magazine/radio/TV 1% member of clergy 1% internet 7% other
From: John Moore gmail.com) First editions of BB (except the first printings) had a chapter near the indexes
entitled "Now We Are Thousands." This chapter was dropped, I believe, when the
second edition was introduced. It states: "It had been satisfactorily demonstrated that at least two out of three alcoholics who wished to get well could apparently do so, notwithstanding the fact that their chance of recovery upon any other medical or spiritual basis had been almost nil -- a small percentage at best." View online at http://www.silkworth.net/bbstories/391.html GB John M.
South Burlington VT 05403 - - - - From: Baileygc23@aol.com (Baileygc23 at aol.com) I am seventy nine, and I have seen a lot of people disappear from AA. I have gone to funerals for those who died by using again. I just keep going, and try to stay sober somehow. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6430. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Modern AA success rate From: BILL MCINTIRE . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/6/2010 12:29:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Bill McIntire, James Scarpine, and Glenn Chesnut ON THE IMPORTANCE (OR UNIMPORTANCE) OF ATTENDING A.A. MEETINGS IN EARLY ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS - - - - MEETINGS ALONE WON'T DO IT From: Bill McIntire (maxbott at yahoo.com) I agree!! I have seen NO info that supports those people's statement that "only
2 or 3% of the people that come to A.A. stay sober." Along with good info there
is a lot of bogus stuff as well. I am sure you are already aware of this. I have met countless people who went to countless meetings and never gained much
continuous clean time and many of those who did manage to stay dry were just that: dry. 5 yrs to 35 yrs. However, I have met only a very small handful of people over the last 23 yrs who
had truthfully gone thru the steps, that went back out, and I have yet to meet
ANYBODY who is current with themselves and has a current experience with the steps who has gone back out -- ever!!! Which proves to me a couple of things: (1) meetings alone cannot keep me sober.
If that were so then "B" at the end of How it Works ("that probably no human power could have relieved our alcoholism") would be a lie! And (2) I am still here despite myself, NOT because of myself. Not because of how many meetings I go to, how popular I am, not how many men I am sponsoring, not how well I know or think I know the Book, and certainly not by how well I can spew a lot of "AA" stuff! While I do believe in the supportive power in meetings, there is NOTHING in my experience that supports the message I have heard over the last 15 to 20 yrs, that meetings keep you sober! And to my knowledge, nowhere in our literature does it say that.
or not make it to, is still a foolproof way to stay sober! Enuf of my preaching!!! Bill - - - - THE ONLY MENTION OF MEETINGS is on pages 159-160 in the Big Book, which says ONLY ONE MEETING A WEEK IS NECESSARY From: "planternva2000" (james.scarpine at verizon.net) Please tell me I misunderstood your post: As the Big Book says -- and as actual observation shows, in my own experience -- "Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path." Even
people who have slips -- IF they come back to the tables and start attending meetings again and working the program again -- will eventually gain long term sobriety and die sober, at least 98% of the time, in my own observation over the years.
line, and I no longer have my copies of the second edition, I still have my third and fourth. For the life of me I can find no sentence stating "Here are the steps we took and the meetings we attended, which are suggested as a program of recovery."
these
casual get-togethers (note the word 'casual'), it became customary to set apart
one night a week for a meeting to be attended by anyone or everyone interested in a spiritual way of life. Aside from fellowship and sociability, the prime object was to provide a time and place where new people (note 'new people') might bring their problems.
registered with GSO who do not have access to meetings. At different times in my own early sobriety I was a Loner and later an Internationalist, with meetings few and far between. The gentleman whose story is on page 310 of "Experience, Strength & Hope" was
sober three years and three months without ever having attended a single meeting.
- - - - WHAT THE BIG BOOK ACTUALLY SAYS ABOUT MEETINGS on pp. 159-160 From Glenn Chesnut (glennccc at sbcglobal.net) "A year and six months later these three had succeeded with seven more. Seeing
much of each other, scarce an evening passed that someone's home did not shelter
a little gathering of men and women, happy in their release, and constantly thinking how they might present their discovery to some newcomer. In addition to these casual get-togethers, it became customary to set apart one night a week for a meeting to be attended by anyone or everyone interested in a spiritual way of life. Aside from fellowship and sociability, the prime object was to provide a time and place where new people might bring their problems." "Outsiders became interested. One man and his wife placed their large home at the disposal of this strangely assorted crowd. This couple has since become so fascinated that they have dedicated their home to the word. Many a distracted wife has visited this house to find loving and understanding companionship among women who knew her problem, to hear from the lips of their husbands what had happened to them, to be advised how her own wayward mate might be hospitalized and approached when next he stumbled."
see
more details about what this paragraph was actually describing. Also read the
whole first paragraph, including "scarce an evening passed that someone's home
did not shelter a little gathering of men and women." Most of the early Akron people showed up at Dr. Bob and Anne's house EVERY DAY
-- either in the morning, when they sat around while Anne read from the Upper
Room (or sometimes a relevant Bible verse) and then discussed the topic raised
in that meditational reading -- or in the evening, when they likewise sat around
and discussed how the program was working in their lives, and the spiritual problems that they were having to deal with in their life in the world. One way or another, they stayed in constant daily contact with other A.A. people.
T. Henry and Clarace Williams. This couple were not alcoholics themselves, and spouses also came to this meeting. So what the Big Book was describing on pp. 159-160 -- early Akron A.A. -- actually consisted of SEVEN MEETINGS A WEEK: (1) ONE BIG MEETING A WEEK, which was what we would today call an "open meeting," with non-alcoholics also present, at T. Henry and Clarace Williams' house.
in the morning before work, or in the evening, at Dr. Bob and Anne's house. This kind of meeting was what we would today call a "discussion meeting" or a "topic meeting." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6431. . . . . . . . . . . . Mel B. and Tom D. 60 years sobriety dinner!
From: handlebarick . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/6/2010 8:59:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Mel B. (Toledo, Ohio) and Tom D. (Lima, Ohio) will be present to answer questions on Sunday, May 2, 2010 at the "Gratitude for our Sobriety" dinner in Wapakoneta, Ohio
April 1950, and have 60 years of sobriety each. This event will be held at the First English Lutheran Church, on 107 W. Mechanic
St. in Wapakoneta, Ohio. Wapakoneta is located in western Ohio, about 25 miles from the Indiana border,
just off Interstate 75 halfway between Toledo and Dayton, where the interstate crosses U.S. Highway 33.
Covered dish dinner at 3:00 pm Ask-It-Basket session with Mel B. and Tom D. at 4:00 pm
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