Aa history Lovers 2010 moderators Nancy Olson and Glenn F. Chesnut page
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a power greater than one's self. Even this concept is forced on no one." That was a quote from Bill Wilson. I am sorry if, in Arthur's opinion, Bill Wilson got the AA position all wrong. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6191. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: the term ex-alcoholic From: Chuck Parkhurst . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/28/2009 10:09:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII What portion of the basic text used the term "ex-alcoholic" and what was it changed to? - - - - From the moderator: See Message 2258 from: Jim Blair 1st Edition - changes made in the 11th Printing - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN." - Increased thickness 1/16, decreased height 1/8 inches. - P28-L22, Ex-Alcoholic to Ex-Problem Drinker. - P30-L06, Ex-Alcoholic to Ex-Problem Drinker. - P178-L20, Him to HIM. - P271-L16, Ex-Alcoholic to Ex-Problem Drinker. - P272-L06, Ex-Alcoholic to understanding - P330-L30, Ex-Alcoholic to Non-Drinker.
Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2009 Subject: Re: More on Huxley etc. -- the term ex-alcoholic
Big Book used the term "ex-alcoholic" six times, on pp. 28, 30, 271, 272, and 330, and it wasn't until the 11th Printing in 1947 that it was changed. I suspect the term was commonly used then.
++++Message 6192. . . . . . . . . . . . Religion and AA From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/28/2009 6:52:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Jon Markle and Arthur S. - - - - From: "Arthur S" (arthur.s at live.com) The Happiest of Holidays to you Jon I think this could make for a good historical discussion, namely "where does religion fit in AA and what does AA owe to religion"? The answer will likely vary substantially based on one's choice of the meaning of "religion" and "religious" and whether or not it is conditioned on disillusionment (you seem to perceive religion as a peril).
is used as a more palatable substitute for the word "religion"). I'm not speaking of institutionalized Religion or a specific set of beliefs of a particular denomination. Etymologically the words "religious" and "spiritual" are interchangeable. Search the various dictionary sites on the web and compare the definitions of the two words." I'll borrow from the internet: The word "spirit" and "spiritual" generally mean "of the soul" and are derived from the Latin word "spiritus" (the breath of life). Interestingly "spirits" also means distilled alcohol. Arguments over which German word to use to express the equivalent of the word "spiritual" led to the great Big Book copyright lawsuit of a few years ago.
specific system of belief, worship, or conduct that prescribes certain responses to the existence and character of God." (I don't include atheism in this - it is a torturous non-sequitur promulgated by legal rather than religious matters). The term "religious" is defined as "having or showing belief in, and reverence for, God." My assertion is that religion (and clergy) were, and remain, a great asset to AA. No one, except you, is positing this with the absurd notion of "religious interference in AA" that would "kill us all" and also the notion of citing history "real or imagined" as being "dangerous." This is a history special interest group. Don't go off track with hyperbole and editorial.
Meeting Montreal, Quebec, May 1949 noted that: "Alcoholics Anonymous is not a religious organization; there is no dogma. The one theological proposition is a "Power greater than one's self." Even this concept is forced on no one. The newcomer merely immerses himself in our society and tries the program as best he can. Left alone, he will surely report the gradual onset of a transforming experience, call it what he may. Observers once thought A.A. could appeal only to the religiously susceptible. Yet our membership includes a former member of the American Atheist Society and about 20,000 others almost as tough. The dying can become remarkably open minded. Of course we speak little of conversion nowadays because so many people really dread being God-bitten. But conversion, as broadly described by James, does seem to be our basic process; all other devices are but the foundation. When one alcoholic works with another, he but consolidates and sustains that essential experience. ... We like to think Alcoholics Anonymous a middle ground between medicine and religion, the missing catalyst of a new synthesis. This to the end that the millions who still suffer may presently issue from their darkness into the light of day! ... I am sure that none attending this great Hall of Medicine will feel it untoward if I leave the last word to our silent partner, Religion: God grant us the serenity to accept the things we cannot change, courage to change the things we can, and wisdom to know the difference."
recovery groups that use both the 12 Steps and the tenets of their faith and are successful. I have a number of friends that attend both. Depending upon one's outlook and attitude it does not have to be an either/or situation. I remember when words such a "religion" and "church" were viewed with respect and not considered anathema - it wasn't that long ago from "the now".
That's still the world now. Cheers Arthur
church halls at very nominal rental expense (i.e. Religions extending a cooperative and helping hand to AA). - - - - From: Jon Markle (Raleigh, North Carolina) Date: Mon Dec 28, 2009 Responding to John Barton: I couldn't agree with you more, John. Thanks for saying so. AA is no more a religious program, as such, than it is a medical or physiological or social program . . . even though large parts of our recovery suggestions come from those disciplines as well. It is the synthesis and the symbiotic relationship between all that is man that
seems to be the key to making it work for us alcoholics. The whole person approach. Leave one part out, or emphasize only one aspect (say "religious" for example) and the whole thing gets lopsided and is no more powerful -- if even doable -- than the sum of that one component. And we all know the trouble the Oxford people had getting us sober, permanently! John Barton had written: > > > The Big Book and Twelve and Twelve contain a > fair amount of "theological propositions". Both books espouse the > Christian-Judeo theology of the Bible with the frequent use of such terms as > "Father, Creator, Maker, Father of Light who presides over us all, "Him", > "He" etc. There is also significant use of bible quotes throughout both texts
> such as "Thy will be done", "The Father doeth the works", "Faith without works
> is dead" and many more too numerous and hopefully not necessary to quote here.
> > As Nell Wing said Bill's greatest ability was that of a "synthesizer". Taking > that which already existed from Medicine and Religion and adapting it to our > special use. > > Whether or not AA is Spiritual, Religious, both, neither and whether of not our
> twelve steps constitute "dogma" or "doctrine" would seem to be outside issues,
> best left to the experts in the fields of sociology and anthropology. > > I would also point out that just because AA says ......"xyz"..... or Bill W. > said ..."abc".... doesn't necessarily make it so. > - - - - From: Jon Markle (serenitylodge at mac.com) Date: Mon Dec 28, 2009
Christian influence, we read about upon AA is more of re-write of history by those fanatics that would have it to be so. When in fact, AA was, in my readings, more inclined to stay away from such dogmatic influences. Since Christianity is the dominant religion here in the USA, it seeks to take the credit for AA by coloring anything that has to do with "spirituality", as "theirs".
increasing attempt to hijack the Fellowship. And that is, I hope, one thing this list needs to avoid, "religiously". speculation and what is truth.
Retired Therapist & SA Counseling Dual Diagnosis/COD speciality HS Practitioner, Advisor & Case Consultations Raleigh, NC 9/9/82
Original message from: Jon Markle Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2009 Subject: Re: Huxley on Bill W. as social architect
conclude that are mostly accurate, about no difference between "religion" and "spiritual". But, I have my sincere doubts about such an observation, having had some passing study of our colorful history (in AA) through this group.
any idea. But, that does not make it so. However, today, it cannot be said that "religion" and "spiritual" are one in the same. They are most decidedly NOT. And this is the world . . . the NOW . . . that interests me most. We have resources and understanding today that the drunks did not have back then. Dare I say, better? "More will be revealed". Living in the past world will not help us grow. We must learn from their mistakes. If religion offered us the answer we sought to have the desire to drink removed, we would not need AA. Fact is, it didn't work.
think. That would indeed kill us all, I'm afraid. And attempts to justify such moves, by citing "history" . . . real and imagined, are very damaging, I think. And make AA into a thing that becomes both scary and non-productive. Just like church could not get me sober, neither could an AA meeting that sounds like church. Jon Markle Raleigh
9/9/82 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6193. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Religion and AA From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/28/2009 7:24:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I'm not sure that the AAHistoryLovers provides the proper platform for an editorial saying "historical facts can be cited by anyone to justify and support just about any idea" -- followed by comments about the present state of the religious/spiritual dichotomy (or non-dichotomy). Comments on current affairs in AA aren't really our meat, though an argument -- not simply dismissive comments -- on the possible false uses of history may be. One question, of course, is what is meant by "religion" or "religious" -- on that depend most of the useful things we could say about the dichotomy -- always provided we have an agreed-upon definition of "spiritual" -- but I'm not clear that we do. My own view fwiw is that by "spiritual" we mean pretty much what was meant by "religious" back in the Washingtonian days, and by "religious" pretty much what they meant by "Gospel" -- so that this isn't a new thing. As to "justifying" religious interference in AA, I may have missed the reference point -- I have no idea what is being talked about. Of course, the corporation is incorporated under the laws of the State of New York and is considered by that State as an religious body, so (I believe) that testimony cannot be compelled from members on what was said in a closed meeting (there was a court
case not too long ago) -- being considered a "religious" body has certain advantages, I suppose. I understand that Jon M. (if that is our correspondent's name) wants to keep AA out of "Church" hands, doesn't want organized religion in. Neither do I. If he wants to correspond on the question with me individually, I would more than welcome it: I suspect we agree on quite a lot. But is this the proper venue?
Re: Huxley on Bill W. as social architect Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009
From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/29/2009 8:50:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "Sensitivity to both the non-religious within the fellowship and the professionally religious outside of it led Alcoholics Anonymous to resist identification as an expression of religion. The plea within was for 'open-mindedness'. It infused AA from Dr Bob Smith's stress on 'tolerance' to the final substantive paragraph of the Big Book's appendix, 'Spiritual Experience': 'We find that no one need have difficulty with the spirituality of the program. Willingness, honesty and open-mindednness are the essentials of recovery. But these are indispensable'." (From chapter eight [The context of the history of religious ideas], Not God: a
history of Alcoholics Anonymous; Ernest Kurtz; Hazelden; 1991.) It is confusing to conflate spirituality with religion; substitute religion for
spirituality in the BB appendix quotation to see the difference. Willingness, honesty and open-mindedness are universal values not confined to religion. Semantically spiritual also stands against material; recovery results from a spiritual awakening; it is not a commodity.
[World
Spirituality series]; editor, Peter H. Van Ness; SCM Press; 1996.) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6195. . . . . . . . . . . . What psychological or mental diagnosis? From: jaynebirch55 . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/29/2009 3:48:00 PM
had a fantastic christmas and wishing you the happiest of new years.
of the following. Chapter 5, How it works, "usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves." Have you any further information on this, such as was it a particular mental illness Bill was refering to?
are cases where alcoholism is complicated by other disorders" and "unless the doctor thinks his mental condition to abnormal or dangerous." Do you have any details as to what these might been or what Bill may have been refering to? Were they thinking of precise mental conditions, and were there specific psychological terms which were used at that time to refer to people with these problems? I look forward to your reply God bless Jayne x x x x - - - - From the moderator: Or in the case of inability to be honest with ourselves, was this more of a philosophical issue? I am thinking of the existentialist philosophers of that period. Jean-Paul Sartre's concept of mauvaise foi (literally "bad faith") meant an attempt to manipulate other people by a kind of deception and lying to them about what you really wanted, which ended up with you simultaneously believing your own lies, while also, at some other deep level, KNOWING that you were lying.
"self-deception" and refusal to be honest with yourself.
losing your own freedom. You are torn in two inside. And you end up plunged into what the existentialist philosophers called ressentiment. In Heidegger and Nietzsche, likewise, we have to lie to ourselves and "live a lie" in one way or another, in order to maintain our inauthentic existence, and flee from the power of real life and freedom, and avoid honestly living life on life's terms. There is a deeply existentialist flavor to the Big Book, probably arising from the Zeitgeist (the spirit of the times), the deeply shaking experience of the First World War, and so on. You can see it affecting the Oxford Group also, in Philip Leon's The Philosophy of Courage: http://stepstudy.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/philosophyofcourage.pdf Glenn C. South Bend, Indiana, US IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6196. . . . . . . . . . . . Religion and AA From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/29/2009 11:20:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Jon Markle wrote: >Back in the day, so to speak, perhaps there is some basis to reason >and conclude that are mostly accurate, about no difference between >"religion" and "spiritual". But, I have my sincere doubts about >such an observation, having had some passing study of our colorful >history (in AA) through this group.
four classes for new alcoholics and this comes Discussion No. 2, The Spiritual Phase, which includes Steps 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, 11, and is part of the discussion of Step 3: "3. RELIGION is a word we do not use in A.A. We refer to a member's relation to God as the SPIRITUAL. A religion is a FORM of worship, not worship itself."
between religion and spirituality (the same distinction that is so often made in modern AA) was being made in AA as least as early as 1944, as we can tell from the date on Bobbie Burger's letter below. This particular pamphlet (which was referred to as the Tablemate, the Table Leader's Guide, the Washington D.C. Pamphlet, or the Detroit Pamphlet) was reprinted and used by early AA groups all across the United States, from the east coast to the west coast, and everywhere in between.
to make the common distinction between religion and spirituality? If everybody in AA, all over the country, was doing it back in the 1940's, then it's certainly an acceptable part of the AA historical tradition. Wally P. says that "in the Fall of 1944, a copy of the Washington, DC pamphlet
reached Barry C[ollins] -- one of the AA pioneers in Minneapolis. He wrote a letter to the New York headquarters requesting permission to distribute the pamphlet. We talk about 'Conference Approved Literature' today; but this is the
way the Fellowship operated back then. This is a letter from Bobbie B[urger], Bill W.'s secretary, printed on 'Alcoholic Foundation' stationary."
pamphlet
and a host of others are all local projects. We do not actually approve or disapprove of these local pieces; by that I mean that the Foundation feels each Group is entitled to write up its own "can opener" and let it stand on its own merits. All of them have good points and very few have caused any controversy. But as in all things of a local nature, we keep hands off, either pro or con. I think there must be at least 25 local pamphlets now being used and I've yet to see one that hasn't had some good points. I think it is up to each individual Group whether it wants to use and buy these pamphlets from the Group that puts them out. Sincerely, Bobbie (Margaret R. Burger) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6197. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Recovery rates -- lets look at the DETAILS, and at a few more ea From: Marlo Daugherty . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/2/2010 5:43:00 AM
words
that you miss the point of the story." Here's the way I see the "statistics" in the Foreword to the 2nd Edition: "Of alcoholics who came to A.A. and really tried, 50% got sober at once and remained that way. . ." OK. That means that if you are an alcoholic (as opposed to something else) and you come to A.A. and really try, you've got a 50-50 chance of never drinking again. Can't argue with that!
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6198. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Recovery rates -- lets look at the DETAILS, and at a few more early examples From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/1/2010 10:22:00 PM
document, the error was mine Total members who have never taken a drink since joining -- 19 Number who have had only one slip since joining-- 7 Total successful 26
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