Aa history Lovers 2010 moderators Nancy Olson and Glenn F. Chesnut page
Yüklə 25,47 Mb.
|
| IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
++++Message 6199. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Swedenborgianism and the Burnham family''s religious beliefs From: diazeztone . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/2/2010 1:33:00 AM
I decided to do some reading tonite on the Swedenborgian religion and their movment.
and Bill talked about this. I wonder how many times they attended Swedenborgian church masses or meetings. Was Dr. Bob involved in this in any way? Their religion even included 12 steps to heaven!! I lookforward to reading this new research also! LD Pierce www.aabibligraphy.com IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6200. . . . . . . . . . . . Using WorldCat.org to find books in nearby libraries From: Charlie C . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/30/2009 8:23:00 AM
to Octoberbabye's request for a book on Silkworth. It's nice to own books, but borrowing from libraries can work too, and is a lot cheaper :-) If you want to know how available in libraries a book is, after first checking your local library catalog, look at www.worldcat.org. This is the free public version of a massive shared records site for libraries across the country. You can look for a specific book or browse for books on a subject etc.
area own it.
http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/51063745 Then you can either borrow the book in person, or, use the universal "inter-library loan" system to request that your local library get the book for you. The record from WorldCat gives you all the info you need to make your request. Depending on your library, there may be a small fee to process the request - usually a dollar or two. Something to think about too is that if you live near a university or college
library, they often make provision for area residents to use their collections, again usually for an annual fee. The college library I work in charges $25 a year to area residents to be able to borrow our books, not a bad deal really.
Go settle down And quit your triflin' ways 'Cause the boogerman's gonna get you one of these days Kitty Wells, Make up Your Mind, 1950
From: cwojohnwalter . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/6/2010 9:19:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Is there a recorded precedence in which the minority opinion was heard and then swayed the majority opinion enough to change or table the vote?
group level often but I am looking for some documentation of it happening at the Regional or Higher Level.
opinion and Concept V and would like to geek it out as much as possible.
any minority opinion? From: cwojohnwalter . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/6/2010 9:47:00 AM
have been heard and after the vote is taken and there is a simple or 2/3 majority (whichever is required) than is it necessary to ask the floor for the minority to state its opinion if it so wishes? I understand the importance of an informed group conscience as well as substantial unanimity. But again, my question is: Is it necessary to ask the floor for the minority to re-state its opinion once the vote has been taken?
From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/2/2010 9:12:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "By personal religious affiliation, we include Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Hindus, and sprinkling of Moslems and Buddhists ... "
From: Aloke Dutt . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/3/2010 7:51:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The Ashram Dr. Earle described at the foothill of Arunachalam is close to Madras(now Chennai) The famous guru/saint was Raman Maharishi, more here: http://www.sriramanamaharshi.org/ - - - - Original message 6188 from Baileygc23@aol.com (Baileygc23 at aol.com) http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/6188
"Physician, Heal Thyself!", interview with the Grapevine (GV). October 1995 edition ....
and Marty M. and some others, and I spent about eight or nine days back in New York before I went to Asia. Bill took me to the airport and on the way there he said, "You know, Earle, I've been sober longer than anyone else in our organization. After all I was sober six months when I met Bob. But," he said, "I don't have too much peace of mind." He said, "I feel down in the dumps a hell of a lot." So I said, "So do I, Bill. I don't have much serenity either." I was sober by this time maybe sixteen, seventeen years. He said, "Do me a favor. When you get over to Asia, see if you can investigate firsthand, the various religions in Asia. That means Hinduism, Buddhism, and Taoism, and Confucianism and ancestral worship and the whole shebang." And I said, "All right, I'll do it." And he said, "Stay in contact with me and maybe we can find something in those religions. After all, we've taken from William James, we've taken from all the Christian religions. Let's see what these others have." ... I spent a lot of time in Nepal and in Indonesia. I spent time in India .... I tried meditation, I read the Bhagavad Gita, the Vedas -- everything. I went to an ashram on the southeast coast of India, run by a very famous guru and saint. There were about a hundred and fifty East Indians there. I was the only Westerner and they welcomed me. I wore a dhoti -- that's a white skirt that men wear -- and I wore one like the rest of them did. Etc., etc. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6205. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Religion and AA From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/2/2010 12:22:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII One of the most important messages in Ernie Kurtz's great history of AA: Ernest Kurtz, Not-God: A History of Alcoholics Anonymous, expanded edition (Center City, Minnesota: Hazelden, 1991; orig. 1979):
especially serious question was repeatedly asked by both old-timers interviewed and others with whom observations were shared. Perhaps this question was at least partially inspired by the brazenness of an attempt to write the "history" of a still vigorously living phenomenon, but it was nevertheless a serious question always seriously asked: How long will Alcoholics Anonymous last? Might it change so that it will no longer be Alcoholics Anonymous?"
directly would be to claim the mantle of prophet rather than that of historian: but for all those who so queried, I can now offer explicitly at least the intuition that their very questions as well as this research have suggested. Alcoholics Anonymous shall survive as long as its message remains that og the not-Godness of the wholeness of accepted limitation; and this itself shall endure so long as A.A. spiritualizers and its liberals -- its "right" and its "left" -- maintain in mutual respect the creative tension that arises from their willingness to participate even with other of so different assumptions and temperaments in the shared honesty of mutual vulnerability openly acknowledged.
so long as it is "Alcoholics Anonymous": "an utter simplicity which encases a complete mystery" that no one claims perfectly to understand.
legal status in the US? From: grault . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/2/2010 6:18:00 PM
New York case you referred to. My understanding was to the contrary: that although AA IS a "religious organization" (in the view of the New York court), there is no legal privilege because there is no communication intended to be confidential to a minister, rabbi, priest or the like. I also understood that because AA is viewed as "religious," it has been held by a N.Y. court to be unconstitutional for a judge to "sentence" someone to go to meeting for a driving-while- intoxicated offense.
"J. Lobdell" Of course, the corporation is incorporated under the laws of the State of New
York and is considered by that State as an religious body, so (I believe) that
testimony cannot be compelled from members on what was said in a closed meeting
(there was a court case not too long ago) -- being considered a "religious" body
has certain advantages, I suppose. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6207. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Religion and AA From: pvttimt@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/2/2010 2:39:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: Tim, Jon Markle, Laurie Andrews, jax760, and Charlie C. - - - - From: Tim ,pvttimt@aol.com> (pvttimt at aol.com) In an attempt to tease out the nuance between "religion" and "spirituality" ... I see spirituality or spiritual experience as something that I can have as an individual without regard to anyone else. My inspiration may come from nature, or any of many different sources. Religion seems to begin when two or more people agree on their own personal spiritual experiences, sufficient that they choose to join together and espouse that particular perspective. Then they seek out others of similar experience to join them in fellowship. The unique aspect of AA is that we join the fellowship only to find that it is not only permissible to embrace our own personal version of spirituality, but that we are urged to do so -- not something that the typical religion offers.
- - - - From: Jon Markle (serenitylodge at mac.com) On Dec 28, 2009, at 6:52 PM, Arthur S wrote: > Etymologically the words "religious" and > "spiritual" are interchangeable. Search the various dictionary sites on the > web and compare the definitions of the two words." Here's the problem I think. TODAY, the two words are not necessarily interchangeable. In fact, in most of society today, they are not one in the same and have widely different meanings, attributes and outcomes. Perhaps the most egregious of societal attributes, "religion" as we know it today especially, is highly political. Whereas spirituality is not. And we know from experience that these two philosophies, religion and politics, have no business in an AA meeting. For the most obvious reason: they are both
anti-recovery, anti "fellowship," by their nature. Although many "religious" folk will probably tell you they are "spiritual," the
same is not true of "spiritual" folks. Thus the dilemma. And thus the arguments in AA circles. I see no particular benefit to religious arguments. Because they are ALL an individual point of view and nothing more. Nothing can be factually proved. ALSO: On Dec 28, 2009, at 6:52 PM, Arthur S wrote: > PS - a final tidbit - what percentage of meetings do you think are held in > church halls at very nominal rental expense (i.e. Religions extending a > cooperative and helping hand to AA).
suppositions are why we MUST keep our meetings autonomous and anonymous from the facilities in which they meet. Perhaps more than any one thing you have said, this alone is the very proof we must keep religion out of the Rooms. It seems so obvious to me now, why we must keep this list clean of religious superstitious pinning. AA is not nor can it ever become religious or governed by any religious dogma. If this History list becomes an argument for religious involvement in AA, then it has failed in its watchword. I don't care to debate or discuss it. I just want us to realize this forum is not one which should be used to manipulate historical facts in an attempt to justify religious teachings or interference with organized religion, especially those with fundamental, evangelical agendas, in AA.
the
separation of religion from AA. I want us to be clear about that. Jon Markle/MA Retired Therapist & SA Counseling Dual Diagnosis/COD speciality HS Practitioner, Advisor & Case Consultations Raleigh, NC 9/9/82
From: jenny andrews (jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com) Also ... "As a society we must never become so vain as to suppose that we are
authors and inventors of a new religion. We will humbly reflect that every one
of AA's principles has been borrowed from ancient sources." (AA Comes of Age,
page 231 - quoted in As Bill Sees It, page 223). - - - - From: "jax760" (jax760 at yahoo.com) For an alternative perspective to the "Tablemate" see the Akron Pamphlet "Spiritual Milestones in AA" c. early 1940s. "FEW, IF ANY, men or women have completely fulfilled the aims of Alcoholics Anonymous without at least some grasp of the spiritual, or to use another term in it's broadest sense, religion. True, there have been some who
have managed to keep sober simply by mechanical action. But a preponderance of evidence points out that until one has some spiritual conviction, and the more the better, he takes no joy in his sobriety. Too often we hear an AA remark, "I think this is a wonderful program, but I can't understand the spiritual angle." To them the religion otherwise know as Alcoholics Anonymous is something complex, abstract and awesome. They seem to have the impression that religion, the spiritual life, is something to be enjoyed only by saints the clergy, and
perhaps an occasional highly privileged layman. They cannot conceive that it can
be for the reformed sinner as well. And yet the truth is, the spiritual AA is there for all of us to enjoy. But, asks the alcoholic, where can I find a simple, step-by-step religious guide? The Ten Commandments give us a set of Thou Shalts and Thou Shalt Nots; the Twelve Steps of AA give us a program of dynamic action; but what about a spiritual guide? Of course the answer is that by following the Ten Commandments and Twelve Steps
to the letter we automatically lead a spiritual life, whether or not we recognize it." This pamphlet is still sold at Akron Intergroup. Attempts to differentiate (by us laymen i.e. AA members) such complex, multi-dimensional contructs as spirituality and religion or religiousness are extremely difficult and any attempt at a single or narrow definition of either, which historically have been and are still today quite broadly defined in dictionaries,(and by sociologists, pyschologists and everyone else outside 12 step recovery) reflects a limited perspective or perhaps an agenda (spirituality is good and religion is bad). The majority of people in the USA do not differentiate between these two wonderful, dynamic and empowering constructs. Note 1
important to insist on the distinction between religion as an individual personal function, and religion as an institutional, corporate, or tribal product." William James - VRE
Group
called it "personal religion", we in AA call it "spirituality". In each instance
we are talking about the same thing.........a personal religious experience, or if you prefer a spiritual experience. As "a way of life" they are indeed one in the same. Those interested may wish to read Bill's "Three Talks to The Medical Societies" (P-6) and see how Bill described the AA program of recovery to educated men of medicine and science. Bill used the words spiritual and religious interchangeably in most of his writings (see p.569 AA) and never once have I read anything from Bill that said "AA is Spiritual not Religious" (he was way too smart to engage in such controvery) in fact I have found dozens of citeable instances of Bill describing "the work" as "religious" as well as dozens of instances of him describing the
program or its actions as "spiritual." It should be no surprise to anyone that
drunks have always had trouble with anything "religious" including the word or idea. Thus AA adpated the word and idea "spiritual" and "spirituality" to suit the needs of the society. "The basic principles of A.A., as they are known today, were borrowed mainly from the fields of religion and medicine, though some ideas upon which success finally depended were the result of noting the behaviors and needs of the Fellowship itself." – p. 16 12&12 Whether or not AA is spiritual, religious, both or neither is best left to the
outside experts. Just because AA or its members, some or all, majority or minority, say ...xyz.... doesn't make it so. Has anyone seen or would like to comment on the many (I believe eight) major legal cases involving the establishment clause that have been tried in the last twenty five years in either state supreme or federal circuit appeals courts? How does the legal system in the USA define AA? IN THE MATTER OF DAVID GRIFFIN, APPELLANT, v. THOMAS A. COUGHLIN III, AS COMMISSIONER OF THE NEW YORK STATE DEPARTMENT OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES, ET AL. RESPONDENTS. 1996 N.Y. Int. 137. June 11, 1996. No. 73 [1996 NY Int. 137]. Decided June 11, 1996 "On this appeal we hold that, under the Establishment Clause of the United States Constitution's First Amendment, an atheist or agnostic inmate may not be deprived of eligibility for expanded family visitation privileges for refusing to participate in the sole alcohol and drug addiction program at his State correctional facility when the program necessarily entails mandatory attendance at and participation in a curriculum which adopts in major part the religious-oriented practices and precepts of Alcoholics Anonymous (hereinafter A.A.).
New York's appeal to have the Griffin v Coughlin ruling overturned. In several of these landmark cases attempts to differentiate "spiritual" from "religious" were rejected by the courts. With that I have ceased fighting anyone or anything and have resigned from the
debating society. BTW, for the record, I have no problem with either religion or spirituality. Identify and don't compare? God Bless Note 1 Conceptualizing Religion and Spirituality: Points of Commonality, Points of Departure Peter C. Hill, Kenneth I. Pargament, Ralph W. Hood, Jr., Michael E. McCullough, James P. Swyers, David B. Larson & Brian J. Zinnbauer Journal for the Theory of Social Behavior 30:1 0021-8308 - - - - From: Charlie C (route20guy at yahoo.com) I think it would be quite interesting to pursue this discussion in terms of what spiritual and religious notions were in the the 1930s, and what they are today. My impression from their biographies is that while both Dr. Bob and Bill were rather eclectic browsers in spiritual matters, e.g. their interest in Ouija boards, they were both also both respectful of and knowledgeable about the primary organized religion of their day, Christianity.. Things are different today of course, there are many spiritual and religious "options" as it were that were not so present in the 1930s. I would like to see more of that same respect, and lack of prejudice (see p49 in the Big Book for example) in AA today that Bill and Bob had. In my 21 years of sobriety I have heard an unpleasant amount of careless, ignorant and disrespectful talk Yüklə 25,47 Mb. Dostları ilə paylaş:
|