Aa history Lovers 2010 moderators Nancy Olson and Glenn F. Chesnut page
particular being is contained and made one with
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Unity, that Over-soul, within which every man's particular being is contained and made one with all other; that common heart" which is the shared feeling of the entire universe.
thought of India (as were many other members of the Transcendentalist movement -- they seem to have known much less about Buddhism). Emerson's concept of the Over-Soul is very similar to the Hindu teaching of Advaita Vedanta. The Sanskrit term Param-atman or "Supreme Soul" -- which seems to be very closely similar to Emerson's Over-Soul -- also appears in Hindu literature in the study of the Vedas. My spirit is a spark of the divine, and is one with all other human spirits, and one with the Spirit of the Universe.
prompting in the story he relates in the Big Book was Emerson's Over-Soul -- our intuitive awareness of the divine and infinite while gazing at the beauties and marvels of nature -- NOT the Jesus of the frontier revivalists or the new Bible-thumping Protestant Fundamentalist movement which had arisen at the beginning of the twentieth century.
first attempts by the new Fundamentalist movement to flex its muscles and try to drive all other forms of Protestantism out of existence. The Fundamentalists mounted unrelenting attacks against both the New England Transcendentalists and the New England Unitarians, against the Southern Methodist liberal Christians who published the Upper Room, against liberal Presbyterians and American Baptists like Harry Emerson Fosdick (one of AA's early praisers and defenders), against New Thought preachers like Emmet Fox, against existentialist and neo-orthodox theologians like Reinhold Niebuhr, etc.)
is closer to Emerson's Over-Soul than anything else in American religious history:
sensed while looking at the grandeur of the starry heavens above, and
scales fell from his eyes (see the story of the Apostle Paul's conversion in Acts 9:18 in the New Testament), when Bill quit worrying about religious doctrines, and trying to figure out who Jesus was, and all that sort of thing, and just let himself immediate intuit the presence of the divine in all the things of the world around him.
"religion" in the sense of formal religious doctrines, hundreds of religious rules, choosing the "correct" holy book and then literally following every one of its complicated rules, you may in fact never get sober at all, and will at best gain a kind of white-knuckled dryness which is filled with resentment, continual quarreling and attacks on other people, and an absence of any truly deep serenity.
Rule 62, and try to turn AA into an uptight collection of hundreds of unbreakable rules, whether based on narrow logic-chopping interpretations of the Traditions, or sorting through thousands of Conference Advisories, or whatever else the source of all your rules is -- this is legalism, the attempt to win salvation by works of the law.
Imagine how Henry David Thoreau would react to some of the excessive legalists whom we sometimes encounter in modern AA! He would walk out of the meeting, go outside of town and build a little hut there in an especially beautiful spot, plant a little garden, and start holding his own AA meetings there, a meeting held for those, like him, who really wanted to come in contact with the God of Bill Wilson and Bill Wilson's grandfather. So yes, a study of the nineteenth-century New England Transcendentalists is extremely important to understanding Bill Wilson's New England background. If you went to high school, let alone university, in late nineteenth- century and early twentieth-century New England, you couldn't escape the influence of Emerson and Thoreau and the rest. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6224. . . . . . . . . . . . Chauncey Costello from Pontiac, Michigan
From: Henry Cox . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/6/2010 3:50:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Chauncey Costello got sober in the early forty's, and died I believe in 2003 or 2004. He lived in Pontiac, Michigan.
attending meetings up until 2002. Any info people have about him in local A.A. Archives or elsewhere would be helpful. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6225. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Requirement for time sober for people running meetings? From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/11/2010 3:05:00 PM
and Ben Humphreys - - - - From: A.A. Pamphlet: "The A.A. Group ... Where It All Begins" http://www.aa.org/pdf/products/p-16_theaagroup.pdf It says in this pamphlet that it is usually six months. But each group can do as it damn well please and usually does. Groups with a lot of old timers might have people with thirty or more years sober as leaders and in the same area people with very little sobriety may be leading or holding offices. Reading the pamphlet may help one to understand. - - - - From: James Blair (jblair at videotron.ca) Old Bill wrote > In our area, there is a "rule" that you must > have at least ninety days (or even six months) > of sobriety before you can "run" a meeting. > In addition, several Step groups require a > year (or even two) before someone is given > "the chair."
days. Early membership surveys excluded the people with less than 90 days. Jim - - - - From: Jon Markle (serenitylodge at mac.com) My home group also had such guidelines. For which, having visited less structured groups, I am forever grateful. We also added stipulations that the member had to be a home group member, be sponsored by a home group member and before leading a step study, have had experience working that step with the recommendation of their sponsor.
could be involved in early on, that make much more sense for a newcomer than leading a meeting. Such as helping to set up, make coffee, ash trays (back in the day), mopping up . . . etc. My understanding is that such guidelines are independent of AA as a whole, each
group being autonomous in these matters. - - - - From: Jay Pees (racewayjay at gmail.com) In my home group we leave it up to the member's sponsor and prefer that the sponsor be with the sponsee for his first couple times chairing. Some groups use six months and some do it the same as my home group. "Each group should remain autonomous." - - - - From: "Ben Humphreys" (blhump272 at sctv.coop) Read the pamphlet "The AA Group." This is a good guideline for such questions. It is up to the group to decide guidelines. There really are no "rules" per se.
Michigan
From: BobR . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/16/2010 8:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Chauncey was one of the speakers at the -- believe it or not -- young people's panel at the 2005 International convention. I think one of the young people was 16 with 4 years sobriety and he had something like 61.
common in early AA From: ricktompkins . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/16/2010 6:22:00 PM
un-sourced quote could very well be describing the newly-formed Alcoholic Ward of that hospital.
Dale Mitchell's biography of him (I have it somewhere but can't find it right now to give you more info).
partnership with the AAs of NYC for their nonstop visits there. On a lighter note, in case you've ever heard of a place named "Dusty's Tavern" it refers to the name of the ward's Day Room. And in Akron, St. Thomas Hospital established an alcohol treatment ward under Dr. Bob's direction with very much the same arrangements as Knickerbocker (but with the added blessing of Sister Ignatia's efforts). I don't know how Akron City Hospital handled drunks after the first few years of our 'AA Method' post-1939.
recovery, and substantial involvement from AA volunteers seemed to be the successful model that worked well for the many prospects who were placed into hospitals first before coming to AA in the early days of our Fellowship.
larger term of 'qualifying' the newcomers on whether or not they were ready for surrender and recovery.
scoff remained to pray." Rick, Illinois IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6228. . . . . . . . . . . . Grave emotional and mental disorders, delusionary thinking From: Steven Harris . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/14/2010 2:29:00 PM
meant on p. 58 of the Big Book when it refers to people "who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders," and when it refers on p. 62 of the Big Book to "self-delusion"?
disorders, and so on, is the Big Book talking about?
disorders, delusionary thinking From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/16/2010 11:17:00 PM
talking about, in terms of modern psychological terminology, when they referred on p. 58 of the Big Book to people "who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders," and when they referred on p. 62 of the Big Book to "self-delusion"?
the AAHistoryLovers, in various kinds of ways, most recently in Message #6195
satisfactory answer. Let me try to give you a different kind of answer, however. There were three basic models of alcoholism treatment in the early days, which had extremely high success rates, and which were positively disposed towards AA. 1. Sister Ignatia's treatment program at St. Thomas Hospital in Akron. They had a psychiatrist on staff, and when an alcoholic came in who needed psychiatric help in addition to guidance in working the steps, they sent that person to the hospital psychiatrist. There is a chapter on her program in Bill Swegan's book: http://hindsfoot.org/kBS1.html 2. The Lackland Model developed by A.A. member Bill Swegen and famous psychiatrist Dr. Louis Jolyon "Jolly" West (later copied by Captain Joseph Zuska and A.A. member Commander Richard Jewell for their Navy alcoholism treatment program at Long Beach, with equal success). http://hindsfoot.org/kBS5.html In this treatment method, leadership of the treatment was shared between a good psychiatrist and an A.A. member with a lot of quality time in the program. Bill Swegan reports that only a certain percentage of the alcoholics whom they treated actually had severe psychiatric problems, and that usually the only people who could actually profit from psychiatric help were those who were a little better educated and more aware of their own emotions. If the alcoholic's psychiatric problems were crippling and could not be treated well enough to restore that person to active duty in the Air Force, the person was denied treatment for his alcoholism and discharged from the Air Force. 3. The Minnesota Model also tried to combine psychological help and A.A. participation, starting around 1954 at Willmar State Hospital in Minnesota, with great success. In the early 1960's, Hazelden also began using this method, also with great success. But then in 1966, Lynn C., who had continued to insist that Hazelden's treatment regimen remain "pure A.A.," finally left the center, and the mental health professionals came to strongly dominate Hazelden from that point on. The philosophy became one of treating "chemical dependency" using many different disciplines and treatment modalities. For myself, I'm not sure that the present Hazelden program could still be termed the classic "Minnesota Model" in any kind of way. See http://hindsfoot.org/kBS5.html and William L. White, Slaying the Dragon: The History of Addiction Treatment and Recovery in America (Bloomington, Illinois: Chestnut Health Systems and Lighthouse Institute, 1998). But it is certainly clear that the combination of good A.A., together with good psychological help for the small percentage who need it, can be a very powerful and successful combination in the treating of alcoholism and drug addiction.
treatment programs which were developed during the early period of AA history, combined total immersion into the AA fellowship, along with psychiatric care for the small percentage who needed it. Having even fairly severe psychological or mental problems was hardly ever regarded as an automatic indication that one would never ever be able to work the AA program or stay sober using the twelve steps.
who were severely schizophrenic (I remember a woman in a meeting I used to attend who heard one of the voices in her head telling her one day to bite off one of her own fingers, so she did it -- but she eventually got sober, and stayed sober, and had a fair amount of serenity most of the time). Also numerous people who were deeply bipolar. A young woman with Down's syndrome. I used to sponsor a person with ADHD (Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder). Borderline Personality Disorder.
psychological problems, DO NOT give up hope and fall into despair, and start saying to yourself, "Oh, I will never ever be able get clean and sober."
(b) get a good psychotherapist or psychologist or psychiatrist and let that person help you too. Throughout AA history, people who have done that, and done it as honestly as they could, have consistently found sobriety, a good life, and a considerable amount of happiness. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6230. . . . . . . . . . . . Properly identifying Jim who put whiskey into milk From: royslev . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/16/2010 10:29:00 PM
shall call Jim" in pages 35-37 of the Big Book (in Chapter 3 "More About Alcoholism")
Prodigal Story" appeared in the first edition of the Big Book.
figures is that in "Another Prodigal Story" the protagonist drinks an ice cream soda AFTER drinking heavily simply in order to cover up the smell of the booze on his breath, while Jim in "More About Alcoholism" thinks that if he mixes whiskey in milk, he can drink that mixture without getting drunk. That is not the same thing at all. That certainly does not mean that these two are the same person.
Jim had "inherited a lucrative automobile agency," lost it through his drinking, but then got sober for a while, and "began to work as a salesman for the business he had lost through drinking" (Big Book p. 35). "Another Prodigal Story" http://silkworth.net/bbstories/357.html says nothing about the author ever owning an automobile agency, losing it, having to go back to work there as a salesman, getting sober in AA, or having a slip and being committed back to the asylum once again.
I have checked with several good AA historians -- Lee C., Mel B., Dick B., Ray G. -- and none of them know of any other evidence which could be cited which would link "Jim" in Chapter 3 of the Big Book with the person who wrote the story "Another Prodigal Story." And while we are at it, why is the author of "Another Prodigal Story" identified as Ralph Furlong? What is the evidence for that identification? Both in my own research, and in talking with some good AA historians and archivists, I have not yet discovered any reasons for identifying "Jim" on pp. 35-37 of the Big Book with the author of "Another Prodigal Story," nor have I discovered any reasons why either of these people should be identified as a man named Ralph Furlong. Can anybody come up with any evidence in support of any of these identifications? Thanks for your responses. Roy L. ( class of '78 ) - - - - From G.C. the moderator: This same question has been asked before, although not nearly as clearly as you have done it, see Message 2187, date: Sat Feb 12, 2005, from (lghforum at earthlink.net) http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/2187 "But how can you tell that Ralph F. is the 'Jim' who thinks 'he could take whiskey if only he mixed it with milk!' on page 37 of the BB 3rd Edition?" Nobody answered the question when it was asked back there in 2005, and now Roy L. has asked it again, so this question is still crying out for an answer. The answer may be simple, but what is it?
Michigan
From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/16/2010 10:36:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII My recollection is that Chauncey C. was the longest sober member at Toronto 2005
and died in 2006. Did he get sober at Dr. Bob's [house] in Akron in 1941? He was succeeded as oldest by Easy E. down in Alabama, who got sober, I think, in Nov 1942, and died in 2008? I don't know of any living members who got sober before the end of WW2 (and stayed sober) -- there is in Bristol, Pennsylvania, Clyde B. who got sober in Boston June 20 1946 and wrote a book a dozen years ago
-- SIXTY YEARS A DRUNK FIFTY YEARS SOBER (under the pen-name Freeman Carpenter). He's the longest sober I've met.
be taken? From: nuevenueve@ymail.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/15/2010 9:28:00 PM
extension to take the twelve steps I've found some indicators v.gr. in Fr. Pfau's "Out of the Shadow" one year; in John Batterson's pamphlet 4 weeks; and also 4 weeks in the next article from a previous group message: http://www.aabacktobasics.org/B2BArticles.html
after 7 or more sobriety years attending meetings. Are there in the GSO-AA literature some approaches/suggestions on an average 12 step timing?
and to his/her sponsor? Or, in other words, does AA have a position/recommendation on such a time range?
P.S. In the Big Book chapter five there's a continuity indication between steps 3 and 4: "Though our decision was vital and crucial step, it could have little permanent effect unless at once followed by a strenuous effort to face, and to be rid of, the things in ourselves which had been blocking us......"
From: bbthumpthump . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/12/2010 12:16:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In Area 10 (Colorado) we always ask for Minority Opinion. There is hell to pay
if you don't. So, yes it is neccesary to ask for Minority Opinion. We too have
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